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Does anyone else find it suspicious that there wasn't any criticism on here about Stop Killing Games until after it hit 1.4M signatures? (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/games@lemmy.world
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As the title suggests, over the last couple of days there's been an influx of doomer comments over the SKG petition. While it's fine to disagree, I'm finding it suspicious that there weren't comments like this posted a week or 2 ago

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[–] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

From the 5-10 min of his videos

There's the problem: you won't get evidence of a murder if you ask the murderer for it.
He streams a lot, so the things he says or does are spread out, especially if you're only looking for noticeably damning stuff like the rim job related rant against SKG.

His confidence and speechcraft makes him very good at steering conversations by lying or deflecting, as long as you trust what he says.

Good places to start looking may be his conversation with Dr. K or Ross' "The end of Stop Killing Games" on Youtube, both are hosted by level headed people;
I can only assume you haven't seen the latter, because at the very least it makes it very apparent why people dislike him.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Dr. K

    This one? He sounds like an awesome dude according to his bio, but I've never seen anything by him, I'll check him out.

    And I haven't seen any conversations between him and Ross. I did see snippets of his original reaction, where he seemed to completely misunderstand the petition, and his follow-up, unhinged rant, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on the latter because he had apparently gotten a lot of negative attention (swatting attempts, calls for him to leave the publisher he was at, and random negative remarks on his own games), so I think it's quite possible his attack on Ross was an emotional reaction to that negative attention, and not level-headed attack on Ross (I've seen nothing to suggest Ross is anything other than an awesome guy).

    So my opinion on PirateSoftware is relatively neutral. He seems to be on the better end of the streamer range, which isn't saying much (lots of popular streamers are pretty toxic). I don't think he's anyone to look up to, and I wish he'd either have Ross on to discuss the petition or thoroughly read and understand it so he can elucidate his opposition to it, both of which I think would be helpful for his audience to form an actual opinion instead of borrowing his. But maybe he's on the worse end of that spectrum, I don't know, since again, I've only watched a few minutes of his content and he seemed like your average streamer who exaggerates their credentials and leans into "content," and I'm not surprised clowning on people is part of that.

    I literally had not heard of him a month ago, so I'm missing a ton of context. However, nothing I've seen makes me want to watch more of his content (he's definitely not my style), but nothing makes me think he should be "cancelled" or whatever. Aside from some offensive remarks, I don't think he's really hurting anyone.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    he's repeatedly refused to talk to ross;

    after the first video pirate software uploaded about SKG, ross left a comment offering clarifications and a chance to talk about the petition and surrounding misconceptions.

    ross was refused an answer.

    then PS uploaded more videos, and streams, with even more misinformation.

    ross ignored it at that point and just continued doing his thing, advocating for the petition, giving updates, etc.

    then it looked like the petition would fail, so ross decided there's nothing left to lose by talking about the drama with PS, and lo and behold, suddenly all youtubers and streamers were suuuper onboard, helped spread the drama, and as a consequence SKG reached its goal... because of the drama.

    so a net positive overall, but sad that it's only because drama sells ads on streaming and video sites...really just a dumb state of affairs...

    and to be clear: ross wasn't at all vindictive in his video. frustrated by the situation, yes, but ultimately it was a very fair and sober response.

    highly recommend checking it out; from what you said so far, i think you'll enjoy the level-headed approach ross took!

    here's a link to the vid

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    he’s repeatedly refused to talk to ross;

    Yeah, and that's what disappoints me the most. I think suck a conversation could be productive and really suss out where PirateSoftware is coming from. Maybe there's more to it, but w/o that conversation, it just seems like he misread it and is doubling down relying on whatever meager credentials he has. That's sad, because I'm sure he absorbed something useful in his years working w/ game devs.

    helped spread the drama

    And honestly, that makes me want to watch those other streamers less. I used to watch SomeOrdinaryGamers, but him repeatedly getting into YT drama (and claiming he didn't like it) turned me off, and now he's apparently back on that same trend. I'm sure those other YTers have decent takes, but I just really don't like all that drama.

    Ross' petition should succeed because it's a good petition, and that's obvious from the text of the petition. It doesn't need YTers to create a bunch of drama about it.

    ross wasn’t at all vindictive in his video

    Yeah, Ross is a stand-up dude. He made a big deal about not wanting to get into drama, but that he'd do whatever was necessary, and the result was a very reasonable rebuttal. I'd like to buy him a beverage of his choice, he seems awesome.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    where PirateSoftware is coming from

    see, I'm afraid it's simply down to money.

    so I'm not convinced it would be all that productive to talk to ross.

    he made the assertion, without evidence, that the petition would kill live service games, and then based everything else on that flawed premise.

    it has been explained to him that this is not the case, multiple times over.

    he, as an ex blizzard employee amd avid WoW player, should know exactly just how popular private servers for WoW are (used to be? haven't played in about 10 years, but used to play a lot on warmane myself).

    that makes his takes especially weird, since that's a perfect example of how game preservation for live service games could look like! (although I'm sure corporate was 'not amused' by those servers at all...)

    this implies to me, that his motives are not at all honorable.

    the most likely explanation, which is entirely speculation on my part, is simply fear of missing out on profits, if he ever gets his game out.

    or that creating his game is going to take so long (cause he spends all his time streaming instead of working on his game), that he'll basically have to start over, since by that point he probably will have to comply with the new regulations, eating into his profits.

    imho: doesn't really matter what his motivations are, because his opinions are harmful to everyone enjoying games, period. and that, weirdly enough, includes himself!

    so I'm not very optimistic on this point, but i would like to be wrong!

    at least that would most likely be, because there's a more interesting explanation...

    And honestly, that makes me want to watch those other streamers less.

    I'm the same!

    drama turns me off content creators, not the other way around...

    (i only know about the drama, because so much has been showing up in the recommendations under the videos i do watch...i have watched exactly none of the drama/reaction videos)

    the problem with the streamer/yt drama machine i have specifically, is that all the creators that jumped on that particular wagon were dead silent on the initiative in the first place.

    and that's the real tragedy: a whole group of people, whose livelihoods, even if they don't necessarily depend on games, are very much enhanced by them a LOT, did fuckall to support the initiative. nothing.

    ....until they saw an opportunity to profit off the drama!

    THAT'S what gets me!

    these are all people that are supposedly (and i really do believe largely honestly) passionate about games!

    ....until it might eat into their profits to share something that would benefit them AND their audience.

    the utter lack of solidarity is what really turns me off about these people...

    (well...in addition to everything else about streamers... I don't like streamers very much in general...never understood the appeal...)

    It doesn't need YTers to create a bunch of drama about it.

    yeah, but this point is an issue with the outrage-based economy of online content, not this particular case...

    sucks in it's entirety, but until we manage to decouple content from ad revenue we're stuck with it.

    only solution i see is to declare the internet a utility (which it obviously IS, but try telling that to the money people...)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    But what's his profit motive? He makes mediocre indie games and did some undefined work (probably publicity) at an indie publisher. I don't see any material change to him financially whichever way the petition goes. He's kinda popular, but far from a big influencer.

    That argument doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

    fear of missing out on profits, if he ever gets his game out.

    This doesn't make much sense. The obligations only kick in once the game gets shut down, so either he makes so much that it doesn't matter (can keep running the servers for a long time) or it doesn't sell well and he just releases server binaries and cuts his losses. Even in the worst case (his misunderstanding), releasing server sources isn't an issue for a failed game, and a small cost to pay for a very lucrative one.

    I think he's just an opinionated guy who sticks with his initial impression, even if it's wrong, and will oppose anything that sounds inconvenient for game devs (what he sees himself as). That's sadly really common, people seem to love jumping to conclusions and only really dig in if the easy assumption negatively impacts them.

    all the creators that jumped on that particular wagon were dead silent on the initiative in the first place.

    Exactly! But honestly, that should be expected because their entire job is to get views.

    The only one I kinda like on this subject is Gamers Nexus, because they actually approach it like journalists instead of just reacting to headlines. They'll interview companies and people to get both sides before making a hit piece. Even then, GN can rub me the wrong way when they pursue something too far.

    never understood the appeal...

    Same. I watch only a handful:

    • FlorryWorry - he's the best at EU4 and goes deep into the mechanics; I've become a much better player from watching his videos
    • MTG draft streamers (NumotTheNummy, LSV, NicolaiBolas) - great at explaining plays and picks
    • Hikaru Nakamura - chess streamer, second in the world, good at explaining plays

    Notice a pattern? I watch people who are better than me at a game so I can learn to be better myself. I don't watch action game streamers, mostly strategy games.

    I'll occasionally watch YT videos when I either don't have time to play a game, or I am stuck and need help getting through a section.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    The obligations only kick in once the game gets shut down

    I'm afraid that's a misconception: in most cases the obligations have to be considered during development.

    in 95%+ of cases, you can't "just release the binaries", because the developers usually don't own all of their assets/code.

    modern coding, and especially game dev, is highly modularized.

    you usually don't build code from the ground up, if there is an existing solution for what you need. (some indie game devs still do that, but it's usually because there isn't an existing solution, or not enough budget; it's not the usual approach)

    so for example, you wouldn't create your own networking solution for a multiplayer game, you'd just use an existing solution.

    but because you didn't write that solution yourself, that part of the code either needs to fall under a license that allows for redistribution, or it has to be removed before you "release the binaries".

    and removing such code after development is a huuuuge headache. this is something that needs to be planned for during development in most cases.

    so yeah, there is some upfront cost associated with SKG, mostly in that the new regulations would need some rethinking about how to handle these code modules.

    either through new or more open licenses, careful design that allows for the removal of problematic modules before release to the community, etc.

    it's not a big cost, but it is there. and creating new requirements for the code, integrating that into review cycles, testing the removals, and on and on the list goes. it's mostly a management issue, but it's by no means trivial.

    not that any of this is a deal breaker, but it should be kept in my mind that these new regulations are not entirely free... it's gonna cause some chaos in the industry. manageable chaos, but all chaos is somewhat expensive, when it comes to industry.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    he obligations have to be considered during development.

    They should be, but my understanding is that there's only a penalty if they kill a game without an EOL solution, and what their EOL plans are don't need to be complete or even stay the same during development. The wording is really flexible here and allows companies a lot of room to explore different options.

    If a company can't redistribute the server code, their options include (and there are probably more):

    • write and release a functional replacement
    • document the API spec for a functional replacement and help the community develop it as the EOL approaches
    • cut out the server bits, or have them gracefully fall back (e.g. for something like Dark Souls, drop the MP feature)
    • find a replacement that allows redistribution and make the necessary changes before EOL

    That's certainly easier to do at the start, but my understanding is that the obligation only kicks in once the servers are shut down.

    And yes, it's not "free", but it's basically free for an indie shop that likely built the server from scratch or used something FOSS. And that describes PS.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    yes, that's pretty much correct.

    and i think i misunderstood the part about the obligations only kicking in after service ends; you are right about that.

    yeah, there's a lot of wiggle room; the proposal is pretty generous!

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The (alleged) swatting didn't happen before "The End Of SKG".
    I also don't think he deserves cancellation, but he has lied so many times, so confidently and so unrepentantly that he deservers very little credibility.

    I understand that some people would feel sympathy for the somewhat excessive negative attention he got (not from me, he lost my sympathy the first time I saw him blatantly lying and lobbing insults) but with the way he ALWAYS behaved, he absolutely had some of it coming.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    excessive negative attention

    Yeah, that's basically what I'm pushing back on. The internet community loves to jump on people and dig up random dirt when they do something unpopular, and a lot of that dirt is exaggerated if not completely fabricated. Look at the response to the Godot tweet about being "woke" for an example of that (which PS rightly defended Godot for).

    He may be a POS, but I don't think he deserves what he got. He deserves to be less popular, sure, but not much more than that.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    That's why I recommended Dr. K's take and Ross', they didn't lean into the drama.
    Though, most of the critiques against Jason I've heard are sound; while it's true that dramatubers search every nook and cranny of his past for slander, they find more stuff than any reasonably sympathetic person should have to be found.

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