Yoga comments on Canada proposes 100% tariffs on Tesla, I have an alternative: open the door to Chinese EVs

Canada proposes 100% tariffs on Tesla, I have an alternative: open the door to Chinese EVs (electrek.co)

submitted 1 year ago by Sunshine@lemmy.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca

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[–] Yoga@lemmy.ca 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The argument against Chinese Ev's is not an economic one.

If some authoritarian state wants to steal from its poorest in society and transfer the wealth to foreign electric car buyers, why is our government trying to win in the race to the bottom?

Billions have been spent on the Canadian EV industry through subsidies, tax cuts and grants. The relative amount of jobs and Canada made goods are pitiful. The real beneficiaries are the foreign auto companies.

We will NEVER have a competitive advantage against China, Japan, US, UK, SK and Germany. Stop trying and put all that money and effort into something we do have a chance at being competitive in.

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[–] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It's not about being competitive against Chinese EVs, it's about preventing China from attacking us economically, politically, and potentially even digitally.

These aren't just dumb vehicles, they're running Chinese made software, for a Chinese company, and reporting data back to China.

They're not just manufactured in China like you may have with other digital devices, with the software control and data residing in more friendly nations.

That matters.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

These aren’t just dumb vehicles, they’re running Chinese made software, for a Chinese company, and reporting data back to China.

If your paranoia wins, then dumb EVs are cheaper than FSD. Tesla will be reporting data back to US. These are issues that only arise because you are committed to having a war on China, as bestest idea ever for Canadian prosperity. USA current war on us should be a bigger concern.

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[–] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Western car companies are not beholden to western governments in the same way that companies in China are. We have laws against government intervention like that here, while China explicitly mandates the opposite.

Sure laws can change, but right now the situation is extremely clear in terms of who we should trust.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Western car companies are not beholden to western governments in the same way that companies in China are.

You innocent child. AI has become a national security imperative, with AI companies devoted to military applications. The most important military application is control over your throughts, just as all media devoted to US supremacy/warmongering/control over your thoughts. American companies are loyal to "national security" orders, and if that means killing you, then they will.

To protect myself here, Israel should finish the job.

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[–] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

I don't live in the US and I don't drive an American made car, I'm not worried about the South Korean government forcing Kia to brick my vehicle.

I said "western car companies" not US car companies specifically.

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[–] nik282000@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.

Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.

A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

You are right, that if US is destined for war on China, then there are clear security risks. It is a horrible destiny that no one in US should think they have the slightest hope of winning, and then thinking it is not actual destiny could be a rational hope.

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[–] nik282000@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

I'm talking about Canada and not about a war.

During peace times it is not in Canada's interest for China to know where all our politicians are, it is not in Canada's interest for China to know where where Canadian military and law enforcement are. It's not in Canada's interest for any entity to be able to tell where specific people or groups of people are at any time.

De-spying should not only apply to Chinese cars but all cars and mobile devices.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago

During peace times it is not in Canada’s interest for China to know where all our politicians are, it is not in Canada’s interest for China to know where where Canadian military and law enforcement are

During peace time, they will not want to assassinate anyone, or worry about soldier movements.

It’s not in Canada’s interest for any entity to be able to tell where specific people or groups of people are at any time.

The US has that power. They spy on allies. Insufficient enthusiasm for the empire can get you JFKd. China can't reach us as easily.

De-spying should not only apply to Chinese cars but all cars and mobile devices.

Yes. We'd have better chance of putting up firewalls/protections/open source solutions without data collection on Chinese EVs than domestic ones.

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[–] GameGod@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago

It's not about software or data. It's about control over the supply chain - cars are essential to our economy and way of life in North America (like it or not). It's the same reason we protect the milk supply. You don't want another country to be able to turn it off in a conflict.

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[–] Yoga@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

We already have Chinese phones, applications, computers and networks.

I don't believe cars are not a meaningful attack vector relative to the economic benefit. Tiktok is a far larger threat.

The trade disputes related to Meng Wanzhou are nothing in comparison to what the US is doing right now.

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[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

I don’t believe cars are not a meaningful attack vector

Considering that EVs are now ranked as the worst offenders for spying on people, just imagine if China was being fed live audio/video + locations of all their customers. They could effectively set up actual surveillance that saturates every populated square meter of the country (including in people's garages or driveways!) through the Trojan horse of affordable EVs.

We should be cautious.

That said, if China can provide safe and affordable EVs that aren't connected to the internet... basically a dumb car that runs on batteries... it would be a much better thing for anyone considering a new vehicle.

Personally, I'd rather support Canadian, European, or Japanese auto manufacturers.

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[–] Yoga@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

Valid. I understand where you're coming from.

That said, if China can provide safe and affordable EVs that aren’t connected to the internet… basically a dumb car that runs on batteries

That would be ideal. If that was the goal, I'd support requirements for that. But that's not what we have, we have gigantic tariffs that were implemented because America did the same.

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[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

That would be ideal. If that was the goal, I’d support requirements for that. But that’s not what we have, we have gigantic tariffs that were implemented because America did the same.

Tariffs aside, the EU is already making it so cars with fewer screens and more buttons will get a higher safety rating.

That's a step in the right direction, and hopefully, the requirement for all vehicles to have an "offline mode" will be implemented soon, too.

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[–] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

In case you hadn't noticed, Chinese devices are frequently banned in Canada, especially for government use.

Chinese gear in telecom networks is either not allowed or being phased out. Chinese cellphones are not allowed for government use. Chinese apps are not allowed on government machines.

I do believe cars are a meaningful attack vector, with enough market penetration the ability to just "turn them off" could cripple the country, and there's not much point in letting them in if we limit the percentage down to something that would lessen the impact.

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[–] Yoga@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

I don't see that happening outside of an outright war with China. I dont think that's very likely. If you have evidence of them doing stuff like that already I'd be open to changing my mind on the topic.

I think it's much more likely they'll just continue buying up our companies like Husky and trying to turn us into an economic puppet state. Which is still better than the stated American alternative of being the 51st state.

They lose that power and risk nationalization of their assets if they go too far. They know that.

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[–] BlameThePeacock@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

Why do you think there wouldn't be an outright war with China?

They plan on invading Taiwan at some point, and we'll probably be funding the defence there.

They've already got paid at that point, and with the sanctions we're likely to slap on them we wouldn't be buying more anyways, so why wouldn't they just brick all the existing cars in retaliation? or use it as a threat to try to keep us from retaliating?

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[–] Yoga@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago

They've been planning on invading Taiwan for nearly a decade.

That conflict overall is as old as the CCP. The reason it ended was the US threatening to step in: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM4900.html

China holds Trillions in foreign assets in the West, they'd be kissing that all goodbye.

I'd bet on Russia getting invaded by China far sooner than Taiwan. In fact, either than the Sino-Vietnam war, the war with the Soviets is their most recent war.

Russia simply has less allies and has more of what China needs and wants, fresh water, uncontested ports and oil among many other things. They also have a (recent) historic claim to Outer Manchuria too.

Even Russia knows this:

https://www.ft.com/content/758ff1ca-6ac1-4188-9b61-c514638447b1

As the war with Ukraine grinds soviet stockpiles down, Russia gets weaker and weaker. Taiwan on the other hand has a lot of allies and is very defensible.

Chinese philosophy and military doctrine is clear. The threats to Taiwan escalate while railways are being made towards the Russian Far East 'for trade'.

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."

"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt."

Invading Taiwan might be the most obvious, telegraphed invasion in history.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago

That is the rationale, if Trump destroys our auto industry, to get better value cars for net prosperity of Canadians even if we lose our very highly subsidized auto industry.

The future (present in China) of car manufacturing is robotics, and EVs require fewer parts that Canadians have specialized in. Still, Canadian resources and manufacturing can help build EVs cheaply here, and worth investing or nationalizing legacy car plants to help bring construction jobs and value to Canadians.

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