Canada

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[+] Annon227@lemm.ee -10 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Have you read the IDF warning to the citizens of Gaza? I find it pretty unlikely, else you wouldn't make a claim as plainly false as "there is nowhere to run". This particular warning is about bombing a very specific region of Gaza that has a large number of terrorist tunnels in it. There are plenty of places "for them to run", as you put it -- quite literally anywhere other than that specific spot.

Regarding Hamas' origins, while this story makes for an excellent straw man, it's not particularly relevant to the question of deceptive statistics. It's also some remarkably dishonest journalism -- it manages to go from "an Israeli official admitted to giving some money to Hamas" to implying that Israel essentially started the organization. All the while, it very conveniently neglects to include any sort of information that might give a sense of scale. Not to mention, it conveniently neglects to mention that all the rival factions to Hamas were also terrorist groups at the time (Fatah only renounced terrorism after Israeli support of Hamas, and the PLO continues to engage in acts of terror to this day).

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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000 (archive link)

[–] grte@lemmy.ca [S] 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Gaza is without power. How exactly is the warning for this oh-so-humanitarian bombing campaign being broadcast? And you think the residents of the area will have the discipline to form up and get out successfully? Israel is bombing civilians, knows they are going to bomb civilians, and intends to bomb civilians and this "warning" is ass-covering so they can deny their murderous intent later.

And Israel's support for Hamas has been ongoing.

But the deep roots of the feasibility of the murderous assault by the Islamist nationalist phalangists from the prison that is Gaza on Israeli citizens should actually be sought in an earlier period of Benjamin Netanyahu’s time in office as prime minister – prior to his criminal trial and his alliance with nationalist Kahanists and the judicial coup, back when he was considered “level-headed” and “rational” and “responsible.”

That’s because since he took office as prime minister a second time in 2009, that same Netanyahu developed and advanced a destructive, warped political doctrine that held that strengthening Hamas at the expense of the Palestinian Authority would be good for Israel.

The purpose of the doctrine was to perpetuate the rift between Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That would preserve the diplomatic paralysis and forever remove the “danger” of negotiations with the Palestinians over the partition of Israel into two states – on the argument that the Palestinian Authority doesn’t represent all the Palestinians.

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[–] Annon227@lemm.ee -3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Did you read the links in your own source? These were a) not Israeli, but rather Qatari dollars and b) according to a source your article cites completely unavoidable. Here's a direct quote from an article linked in what you just sent -- "... this seems to be the right thing to do under the circumstances... the alternative is war".

As for how Israel warns civilians -- while the power Israel provided free of charge to Gaza is currently shut off, yours presumably isn't. Google is free, and reveals that Israel has literally showered Gaza in leaflets warning about this bombing. So long as the Gazans know how to read, your point is moot.

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[–] grte@lemmy.ca [S] 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

This situation was avoidable by ending apartheid. It was unavoidable within the framework of continuing Israel's colonization project.

As for leaflets, that is a crock of shit. It completely ignores the actual logistics of moving the civilian population out of the area. Covering their ass so they can deny their murderous intent, as I said. No rational person sees that as anything else.

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[–] Annon227@lemm.ee -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

A brief catalogue of how the goalposts have shifted:

First, there was a comparison of Palestinian deaths to Israeli ones. Well, that turned out to be totally empty for a variety of reasons including (but not limited to) Hamas' tactics that have the sole purpose of maximize Palestinian deaths.

Then, you decided that Gazans had nowhere to run since you couldn't leave Gaza. Well, sadly that didn't hold up very well since this operation was limited in scope to specific regions within Gaza, so there was no need to leave Gaza to avoid the bombing.

Next, you decided that the origins of Hamas were somehow relevant (besides pointing fingers, still not sure how this is relevant to your lovely theory of "whoever has more corpses must be in the right"). Unfortunately, that also turned out to be essentially a nothing burger, when the very source you decided to cite explicitly stated that a) it wasn't Israeli money funding Hamas, it was Qatari and b) the economic consequences of blocking that Qatari money would inevitably lead to war, leaving Israel no choice but to allow it.

Then, you decided to move the goalposts over to "but the Palestinians have no way of knowing since the power [that Israel provides free of charge] is off". Unfortunately, that also turned out to be baloney since Israel uses nontechnological means to warn Gazans of bombings.

When will the goalposts take off their roller skates and settle down? Great as your endurance might be, gish gallop is not a legitimate way to make a point.

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[–] grte@lemmy.ca [S] 4 points 2 years ago

The goalposts are and remain in the same place: Israel is in the process of committing war crimes against the Palestinian people. What you call 'moving the goalposts' I call countering your deflections from this obvious fact.