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[+] -20 points 2 months ago (6 children)

I remember reading an article where the author explained why telling this is free, you can fork, or send a pull request instead of complaining is a form of ableism.

An analogy, which is not 100% accurate, which I used to explain it to ither people is, "it is not very different from a carpenter telling you, 'the wood is here, the tools also, you can do it yourself it you didn't like what I did'.

The point is software development is a skill. Not everyone can have that skill. It takes training and practice to be good in the craft. A user of the product does not need the skill to operate it. Never think it is okay to tell people "just fork it" or "why don't you send a pull request instead of complaining?".

At the same time, I completely acknowledge that there are some entitled assholes who don't understand or care about the open source philosophy and how it works. I just wanted to point out that asking to contribute or asking to fork is not the right way to address it.

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  • [–] 42 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Except that in your analogy, the carpenter was working on his own passion project for free.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Exactly. No one expects free work from carpenters, artists, chefs, etc. But for some reason it's fine to demand things from free software devs?

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Not really. This is not about money but about skill. Hence I said this is not 100% accurate and added a proper explanation.

    Open source is not about money. The philosophy and culture around it is centered around a set of values. It's free as in freedom.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago

    The same skills used to develop free software can be used to earn a lot of money making corporate software. The same is true for other professions: they can work for an employer, be self-employed, or volunteer their time. The analogy fits, and we all need to earn money to survive.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    The carpenter's "passion project" has turned into a bridge on the city's main thoroughfare. And now he's got this great idea for letting a robot maintain it.

    The robot's last job was at the trap door factory.

    People are concerned. "My cousin fell through a trap door on the bridge yesterday!" But the carpenter is clear: "Go build your own bridge, then."

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It's still his bridge in his yard even if he had been letting everyone use it.

    It's not his problem. He's handing out free bridges to everyone. But people want him to build his bridge their way and keep using his bridge.

    If he wants to ruin his personal project, that's his right.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    in his yard

    The whole point of giving it away is that it won't just be in his yard anymore.

    that’s his right

    Yep, you can argue that the carpenter is within his rights. That's always a sign that the actor in question is behaving in a constructive way, isn't it, when the best defense is to run directly to the finer points of what that actor is legally permitted to do?

    "That's his right" is a very narrow lens with which to view the situation. It's not a POV you'd even choose to bring to the discussion unless you had already decided on the question. It does nothing to address the real-world problems and complaints that are happening. It's pretty much changing the subject.

    Would you make the same "within their rights" argument if the carpenter was Google? Microsoft?

    people want him to build his bridge their way and keep using his bridge.

    I don't think that's accurate. People who rely on rsync want some kind of clear path forward, the option to use something similar in quality to the older versions. If that's not the original rsync project run by the orginal rsync developer, no one will care much.

    It would have been possible for the developer to turn over mainline rsync to someone else, and to go down his AI powered rabbit hole on his own. He could have done all the stuff that was "his right" without being disruptive.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    People who rely on rsync want some kind of clear path forward, the option to use something similar in quality to the older versions.

    That's literally what forking it is for.

    The guy built the bridge 20 years ago. It became a mainline thoroughfare for the entire city, and he maintained it for free. Now he's automating it and people don't like that. They can build their own bridges, or use the one he maintains and either contribute to the project or stop complaining about it not being up to their standards. It's a free bridge.

    You're looking in the mouth of a gift horse.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You’re looking in the mouth of a gift horse.

    Show me.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    What? Do you not know what the expression means?

    The guy maintains it for free. It's a gift horse. You're complaining about the quality. That's looking the horse in the mouth.

    If you don't want this horse, find a different one or breed your own.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I can't afford a horse! I was supposed to ride for free! Where am I gonna get a stable?!

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    That sucks, but open-source devs don't have to pay for your hardware. A free horse doesn't come with a free barn.

    And if you don't like the horse they're offering you for free, you can either find a different horse or walk on your own two feet.

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You’re complaining about the quality.

    Show me.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Oh you're right, you were just piggybacking on another commenter who said this:

    An analogy, which is not 100% accurate, which I used to explain it to other people is, "it is not very different from a carpenter telling you, 'the wood is here, the tools also, you can do it yourself it you didn't like what I did'.

    By saying this:

    People are concerned. "My cousin fell through a trap door on the bridge yesterday!" But the carpenter is clear: "Go build your own bridge, then."

    On a post about someone comparing open-source devs making controversial decisions to pissing in free soup

    That totally doesn't add up to complaining about the quality of the open source software! Nope, you definitely have plausible deniability there, because subtext isn't real! Duh, what was I thinking? /s

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It would have been possible for the developer to turn over mainline rsync

    It's his code. There is no mainline rsync. Whatever the community picks is mainline. When people didn't like where MySQL was going, they forked and made MariaDB the "mainline".

    If people keep downloading his rsync and not another, that's their choice. We might not like it but you can't force people to use the software you prefer.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Every time something like this happens, there's a community outcry: "What a shitty thing to do!"

    And every time, there's a chorus of wannabe libertarians that come crawling out of the woodwork shrieking "HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO SCREW US OVER." As if that's a counterpoint to anything at all. As if that's making a contribution to any conversation.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Communists understand the difference between private property and personal property.

    He didn't screw anyone over. The non ai version is still there. Demanding that he change what he has written into a form that you find acceptable is as silly as my demanding that you write a reply that agrees with me.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago

    That is ridiculous.

    If I want to paint apples, and you want a painting of pears, it's not ableist for me to tell you no. It's not ablist to iterate out your possible options for getting a pear painting either. And that's what he's done.

    Now, the entire painting profession might be ableist in that there are certainly barriers to entry. But it's not a single artist's responsibility to fix painting as a whole.

    My point is, if you truly think the situation with raync is ableist, help develop tools so that more people can program. Enable people to program. Don't just shout down the guy who said "go program". That doesn't help.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    A paraplegic can't build a house, but can learn to code.

    Sure there are people with cognitive disabilities who might not be able to do it, but you can't expect every open source project to be completely accessible even to the most severely cognitively impaired. That's a great way to kill the open source community.

    Commerical products should absolutely be required by law to provide reasonable accessibility, because they have the resources and manpower to do so and are driven by a profit motive. Grants should be available to help smaller companies meet these requirements so they're not disadvantaged relative to the big ones.

    But using ableism to justify making excessive demands on open-source project maintainers who in many cases are doing it solo and for free as a passion project, is kind of absurd. And where does it stop? Can I post a silly little flash game on a public git repo intended as nothing more than a personal project for learning Lua scripts, and then some internet rando tells me I have to add full interpretive ASL, real-time alternative text, and optional eye-tracking controls? If that's above my level, does that mean I can't post my silly little flash game?

    Also, ability is not the same thing as aptitude. Not knowing how to code isn't a disability any more than not knowing how to wire a house. I can't tell an electrician (specifically a hobbyist who works for free) that he needs to rewire my house for me just because I don't know how to do it. I can learn home wiring, or I can pay a professional. But expecting every hobbyist to serve my needs for free just because I don't have their skill sets would be insane.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    But expecting every hobbyist to serve my needs for free just because I don't have their skill sets would be insane.

    I think this mindset shows up often on the Internet because many posters are children. It is normal for them to be given an assignment and have to complete it without compensation. So they think that's how the world works.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    I think many adults are capable of having the mentalities of children, especially when it's effectively taboo to gently correct behavior.

    Abuse is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated, obviously, but we've overcorrected as a society. Teachers, parents, mentors, etc. need to have effective ways of setting ground rules without demeaning and belittling like was so common when I was growing up, or physical violence like the generations before mine experienced.

    It just takes some emotional intelligence. It's possible. Families like that exist, they're just the exceptions rather than the rule. And people from those healthier backgrounds are by far the more well-adjusted members of society as adults.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I like this analogy. One virtue that it has is: Obviously, not everyone can realistically learn to do their own carpentry. It requires a certain amount of time, space, opportunity, capacity for spatial reasoning, and some minimum level of able-bodiedness. None of which are universally available to everyone.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Not his problem. You didn't pay the carpenter.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    So the fact that not everyone can be a carpenter would become the carpenter's problem, if I had paid him?

    Huh?

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Yes. That's how everything works. If you don't know how to build a shelf by yourself or don't have the time, you pay a carpenter to do what you want.

    It's now the carpenter's problem to make the shelf with the specifications that you gave him.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You're so self-righteous, you're plowing through stuff without reading what you're responding to. This isn't what you said before, and even your clarification makes no sense in context.

    It doesn't work, anyway. If you can't build the shelf yourself, what compels the carpenter to make it to your specifications? Even if you paid him? Nothing.

    The trouble is, you insist on framing this in terms of the carpenter's rights. It's an impoverished view. No one else is looking at it that way, no one is disputing his rights.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    You're so self-righteous

    No need for insults.

    what compels the carpenter to make it to your specifications? Even if you paid him? Nothing.

    Violating a contract has penalties. Yes he can ignore it and then give your money back with the potential of being required to give extra money back because of the contract violation.

    The trouble is, you insist on framing this in terms of the carpenter's rights.

    It wasn't my analogy. I'm working with what you gave me.

    disputing his rights.

    Demanding he work for free is disputing his rights.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Demanding he work for free

    Where is this happening?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You don't want him taking shortcuts with AI. He would need to spend more time working on rsync to make you happy.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    He took shortcuts because he wants to spend time sailing his boat instead.

    I say: Go sail your boat then.

    He would need to spend more time working on rsync to make you happy.

    This is called "putting words in my mouth" and it is the reason you're an asshole.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    If you pay the carpenter to make something, he should make what you asked him to.

    If the carpenter makes free stuff out of his own kindness, you don't get to complain that it isn't exactly what you asked for.

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