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There is no pro capitalist left (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/actualsocialism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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[–] 44 points 1 month ago (5 children)

I mean if you're talking about this version of capitalism, sure. But capitalism is more than one thing. These monolithic ideas that you are either capitalist or socialist or something else really downgrades the debate.

I have no love for what we have today. But there's a version of capitalism I could live with - it's just a far cry from what we have.

These overly simplistic memes don't do any favors, in my opinion. Saying if you believe in capitalism you are right wing is more alienating than galvanizing, and it reduces so many concepts down to such basic ones that there's no real meaning left.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Which version of capitalism would you prefer? Does it still involve the private ownership of the means of production?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    I think concern is placed on the wrong end, at least in terms of criticality.

    I am less concerned about "maximums" right now. I know that's going to set off all kinds of alarm bells right now, but bear with me.

    The two are intertwined for sure, but I'm mostly concerned with "minimums". If we had a society with Universal Basic Income, housing and Healthcare for everyone, and people had a safety net to pursue their passions, then I'm far less concerned about if someone has a billion dollars.

    Again, they are both part of the same problem, but it's the focus. If billionaires were no longer allowed, and the money was re distributed amount people with 9 figure net worth already, it doesn't solve anything.

    So yeah if people have the mobility to move from jobs, housing and Healthcare taken care of, and their basic needs met, I think it solves a lot of labor exploitation right away.

    From there we can continue the debate, but I'm more concerned about taking care of everyone who is closer to the floor then worrying about the ceiling. I think there are capitalist ways that continue to reward actual breakthroughs and risks rather than the exploitation we have now.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    I think that capitalism as we have it, but with a solid welfare state as you describe, is pretty close to my ideal society. But when I think about how such a system evolves over time in the presence of privately owned businesses, it seems to me that it is an unstable equilibrium. That is, it has an inherent tendency to break down the welfare state. I'll sketch the argument.

    The first ingredient is that the owning class has an outsized influence on politics. This happens through a number of means, including:

    • threat of capital flight ("if you pass this bill I don't like, I will take my gizmo factory abroad")
    • direct bribes / lobbying ("if you pass this bill I like, I'll give you a nice cushy job at my gizmo factory", and also campaign donations)
    • ownership of the media that completely shape the opinions of the electorate

    Through these means they can influence politicians to pass laws that benefit the owning class. Note that it is not beneficial to politicians to do something about this. This is their bread and butter.

    The next ingredient is that the welfare state as you and I would like to see it (UHC, UBI, and so on) is detrimental to the owning class. A solid welfare state means that workers have a much stronger position to negotiate from. Without UHC, refusing a crappy offer is much riskier since your health is at stake, for example. That is to say, the welfare state drives up operating costs for the owning class. As such, it is in their best interest to fight tooth and nail against the welfare state.

    Combine these two ingredients, and you see that in the presence of privately owned businesses, you eventually lose whatever kind of welfare state you had. A similar argument shows that moving towards such a welfare state from our current system is very unlikely.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I would add that this isn't just speculation, it has historical precedent. The US created a powerful welfare state under FDR and it was slowly destroyed in exactly the way that you described. It's also important to note that it was racism that provided the owning class with the narrative they needed to convince the working class to support the erosion of their own welfare. The creation of the welfare state began with the compromise that the benefits would not extend to non-white Americans. When the civil rights movement successfully forced the issue and demanded that the benefits be universalized the owning class was able to ride the wave of the racist backlash all the way to a near-total rollback of the welfare state.

    Ensuring that welfare for the people lasts requires that we directly and conclusively address the underlying causes of the inequality it is meant to alleviate. We must recognize that private ownership of the means of production is the direct cause of this inequality and will always reproduce it if it is not eliminated. And finally we must also address the social causes of inequality - racism, bigotry, xenophobia, sexism, etc. - so that they cannot be used as justification for the reconstruction of a system of inequality. Alongside an economic and political revolution we also need a cultural revolution.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Yeah. You can have a left based on a version of 'value' where the productive apparatus is made for the benefit not of all, or the benefits of those who do the work, but for those who 'own', who reign, who hold dominion over.

    I really don't see how this is so hard for these people to understand.
    What are your skull measurements, BTW, fellow leftie?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (2 children)

    Yeah, money is a great way of communication and valuation of work and goods over vast distances

    I'm all for an easy token to valuate something and that's ok

    But as you say, what we're doing now, is just not future proof

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    [–] 28 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    What nonsense.

    Politics is not a one dimensional right and left split.

    Real people, who have a personality beyond their political opinions, are all over the spectrum on issues.

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    [–] 15 points 1 month ago

    This is a decent way to self-exclude yourself from relevancy in the political sphere.

    Most of the global left is not strictly anti capitalist but rather advocate more nuanced systems.

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    [–] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Left and Right are relative, not absolute terms.

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    [–] 11 points 1 month ago

    Bars.

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    [–] 8 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Absolutely true statement. Capitalism may be nuanced and politics may be, but support for capitalism is not pro-left in the least.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    How about he Sherman Antitrust Act. It is obviously left wing to oppose monopolies, and yet it fit into and supports a capitalist system. Even communist China has significant capitalist elements. Most notably, in "post capitalist" Star Trek, Jean-Luc Picard owned a fucking vineyard in France. You telling me everyone who wanted a French Vineyard got a French Vineyard?

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    • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I get it but it’s semantics and the way they use it is relative. We need to fight for the things that matter and avoid petty pitfalls.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago

    No, see, its not semantics.

    What are these things that matter that we are fighting for?

    Preserving capitalism, just you know, we'll fix it this time, we just have to do (thing that is guaranteed to be undone by capitalism)!...

    Or... not that, instead, identifying the instinct to do that as the entire main problem that causes or exacerbates all the other problems?

    Its only semantics if you're in full-on capitalist realism mode, where the apocalypse is easier to imagine than the absence of capitalism.

    That's how you get the Fallout timeline.

    I hope we understand that the Fallout timeline is bad.

    Smearing around the meaning of words is actually exactly how propoganda works. If you literally can't even know what someone is talking about or means, well, then you basically just make stuff up willy nilly, confusion increases, meaningful discussion becomes more and more impossible, and the status quo wins.

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    • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    See no true scotsman.

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    [–] 2 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    How?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

    Don't make me pull out the leftists, liberals, and conservatives Venn diagram.

    Edit: Pulling it out.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago*

    The terms left and right are only useful until they are not.

    These days you need to dig down into peoples ideology until you ask the question, should all people be cared for by society? I dont know how many levels up from that we skate around on but its almost insane how we are scaffolded over real human principles.

    Its as if we have a bunch of people yapping, jumping into every conversation, with no idea about the pillars we are build on.

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    [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Man people can't seem to get their terms together. Some people define left as communist/anti capitalist. Some define it as just anyone who wants equity for minorities. Some people define it as anyone they don't like and them damn hippies.

    People use "The Left" contextually. See the Overton window for reference.

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