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[–] 133 points 4 months ago (51 children)

This gets posted regularly on Lemmy, and while the economic take is tone-deaf at best, there's a real issue with generating more power than you can use. You can't just dump grid power


it needs to go somewhere. The grid needs to consume as much as it generates at all times or else bad things happen.

There are of course solutions, but that doesn't mean it's not an engineering challenge to implement.

Figuring out what to do with kilowatts is easy, but figuring out what to do with megawatts, at the drop of a hat, is substantially harder.

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  • [–] 100 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Peak energy production would be a good time to train the damn llms instead of building natural gas power plant I guess.

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  • [–] 44 points 4 months ago*

    Sorry, but Johnny Oil with a shotgun to my head disagrees with your math. and while I never looked at the numbers myself, I am inclined to agree with him that such a plan would be disturbingly “unprofitable”.

    -anyone around western spheres of influence in the vicinity of any sort of lever of power to authorize such changes in infrastructure investment

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Given the price of RAM and graphics cards, it is obvious that running LLM is at least somewhat limited by the amount of hardware available. So having that hardware sitting idle, except when there is too much solar power, is obviously not economically viable.

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  • [–] [S] 28 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Solar panels need an aperture.

    Again, though, using gravity batteries or pumped hydro is a great way to manage excess juice, though these are expensive options.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Batteries? Boil water? Anything?

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Use excess to boil water for steam turbines. Solved. Big oil has INSANE propaganda.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    You can’t just dump grid power — it needs to go somewhere. The grid needs to consume as much as it generates at all times or else bad things happen.

    we figured out this problem centuries ago it is called capacitors. long term it is called batteries

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Maybe I don't know enough about electricity at large scale, but at small scale you can just cut the circuit. Electricity isn't like water that just sits in the pipe when you close a valve, right?

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    It is a lot more like water than you think. The solution of “just cut the circuit” is like solving the problem of overflowing storm drains by “just plug the pipe”.

    The power has to go somewhere. If you don’t do anything about it, the voltage in the cables will rise until things start to fry. Real world power balancing involves adjusting the output of power plants (e.g. how much fuel to burn) in response to changes, and in some cases, dumping power into the ground as safely as possible. This problem gets complicated when power grids span vast distances and involve many different power plants that all need to be in sync or things catch on fire.

    In the case of solar power, this is part of why improved large-scale battery technology is so important. It lets you absorb the excess power at peak generation times, and then release that power at night.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago

    You can dump megawatts. But there is no need for that. It's not like solar panel inverters will just keep increasing voltage until they can push the power into the grid. They have an upper limit.

    Basically I don't see your point

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    The extra power issue is not that hard to solve, when you get close you can start mandating the inverters to have smart connection to the grid, so they stop providing power to the grid if demand is satisfied.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago

    No. No no no. You can literally turn solar generation off, nearly instantly. It's called curtailment and it's done all the time in saturated markets. Older residential inverters don't have the reactive technology, but residential solar is a drop in the bucket compared to utility-scale solar.

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    [–] 108 points 4 months ago (3 children)
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    [–] 29 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Here's the article this is responding to if anyone wants to read it. Here's the study it's reporting on.

    I'd say the tweet is at least a little bit disingenuous because the article is not arguing against the adoption of solar power, rather the focus is on what the challenges to California's solar goals are and what possible solutions might be. The tone is "economic constraints might slow down solar, how can that be addressed?" This is all from 2021, and it looks like since then the slowdown in solar capacity increase it cites as a concern has not materialized, still lots of consistent growth since then. I haven't read enough to know whether this is because the study was wrong somehow, or that it's premise that solar installation costs might not continue to drop just didn't pan out, or that the increased subsidies it suggested came through, but it's an interesting topic.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago*

    My unscientific personal experience answer to your last paragraph’s question:

    The study didn’t anticipate that California power companies would be so unbelievably corrupt and that the price of electricity would nearly double since 2021. We pay $.40-$.60/kWh while the national average is like $.12-$.16 so us Californians are willing to do literally anything to get away from the PG&E cartel. There is supposed to be a governing body that reins in the prices but it’s controlled by the Governor. In this case that’s Gavin Newsom who just happens to own hundreds of millions worth of shares in the utility companies….🤔

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    [+] 28 points 4 months ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (6 children)
  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago

    The owners of my family's last house left us with solar panels, and as a struggling barely middle class family, it helped my parents afford all our expenses; from groceries to rent and even a vacation. It makes me so happy to see solarpunk become so popular, the good it can do is nothing short of awesome.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Can you clarify how the recycling works? We had BP solar panels and after 6-7 years they all cracked (the crystalline silicon couldn't handle the sun or heat) and stopped working

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    [–] 26 points 4 months ago

    It's so efficient that I can't fit my money cog into the machine!

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  • [–] 24 points 4 months ago

    Don't worry, there are literally startups, and Elon Musk, working right now to block sunlight from you and sell it back to you.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    There is literally limitless energy available to us. But as long as the people in charge benefit from people believing the supply is limited, people will be made to believe the supply is limited.

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    [–] 18 points 4 months ago

    That's why we need a way to store the power overnight, this is a well known and obvious problem, and there are solutions. Batteries, flywheels, sand bins, etc. Solutions which should also raise the price of the electrons produced, just to make the fuckers happier.

    Not everyone who writes under the banner of MIT is sincere.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago

    the best solar and wind ad you can imagine is russian energy grid attacks and how communities had built diverse workarounds to mitigate the grid going down here and there. it also spawned local businesses to maintain these stations which greatly helps local economies.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (15 children)

    I mean, a surplus in the electricity grid is actually sort of a problem, especially if you don't have any way to store the extra energy.

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    [–] 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Screen caps need dates. These tweets are pretty old from memory. It feels like making a joke about rotary phones not fitting in your pocket, it's out of date.

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    [–] 11 points 4 months ago

    Problem counter: 0

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago* (6 children)

    I mean yes, but what's genuinely problematic is the variability of the sun. Since it doesn't shine at night, you have to store the energy generated during the day somehow. What about winter, especially in parts of the world where it lasts a very long time? How can we transfer the energy generated in, say, the Sahara desert to Svalbard? Solar is great for generating electricity, but storage and transport of said energy is not completely resolved, yet.

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  • [–] 31 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    For most parts of the world, the only reason why the problem with the variability isn't solved yet, is because governments don't want to invest in the electricity grid. We have the storage technologies, the only thing missing is money. And it's unrealistic to say that energy needs to be trabsported from the Sahara to nordic countries. Finland already needs to cut its nuclear reactors, because the renewables in Finland produce so much energy. Only the furthest regions north can't use solar.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    There are many ways to store the energy without chemical batteries.

    We can use thermal batteries by heating water or other liquids and then release it at night. We can use kinetic batteries like compressing springs and then releasing them at night to turn a generator. Water batteries like hydro dams where you pump the water into a reservoir during the day and then release at night to again power a generator.

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    [+] 8 points 4 months ago (7 children)
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