Should OS makers, like Microsoft, be legally required to provide 15 years of security updates?

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[–] 182 points 11 months ago* (4 children)

I would prefer if they force the companies to unlock root and boot-loader, when they not ship security updates anymore for a device.

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  • [–] 88 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    Fuck it. Force them from release date. There's no reason for them to dictate what you can and cannot run on the hardware you purchase. If they can't compete by providing a better OS or software, and must rely on anti-competitive models to profit, then they don't deserve to waste the planets resources.

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    [–] 63 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    15 is an arbitrarily long time. I think forcing it to be open sourced upon the companies end of life is the better option

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago

    Then you can have a company that acquires the original failed company and provides “support” in the form of one bugfix per year.

    All of these solutions are gamable except for requiring that the solution be open source from the get-go.

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  • [–] 53 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Or legislate that unsupported software becomes public domain or is open for development and the public can try and make the updates themselves.

    Forcing people to upgrade entirely depends on the nature of the upgrades and the motive of the company. What we need is competition so there are alternatives for people to use if they don't want to upgrade. But somehow Microsoft is not considered the monopoly of the PC OS market, despite being a monopoly, and uses that position to force changes nobody wants but them, like turning window into an AI data farming scheme that violates user privacy.

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    [–] 38 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    That sounds like an insane duration, even LTS distros are not usually anything like 15 years

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    [+] 37 points 11 months ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Linux and all its flavors?

    What’s wrong with libreoffice or anyoffice? For a large percentage of users, Linux is fine, especially as many applications have an online option. For the stuff I do, in Linux, online Office is more than sufficient.

    An org I work with provides me with a 365 license, but I I’m more comfortable in Libreoffice.

    Office is used bythe majority, but majority doesn’t mean they are right, they are simply more.

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    [–] 31 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    This is stupid.

    15 years is a massive time to just update your OS.

    15 years ago instagram didn’t exist, the iPad was new, and people were just updating from Vista to Windows 7. I think Hadoop was just created then.

    That is a massive amount of time to support software that would have almost no architectural protection against things like heartbleed.

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  • [–] 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (18 children)

    "Microsoft's decision to end support for Windows 10 could make 400 million computers obsolete

    This is more stupid, and I absolutely agree with the article it shouldn't be legal to end support of an OS this quickly, mind you this is not update to a new OS, like is common on phones, but mostly security updates for the OS you purchased with the device.
    I absolutely think 10 years should be a minimum, but for PC, I can easily see an argument for 15 years, as many systems are purpose built, and should keep working even if an OS is discontinued.

    A similar argument can be made for phones, but maybe that should just be 10 or maybe even just 5 years, which very few phones have. My vote is on 10 years, because what some companies have been doing for a long time, only supporting security updates for 3 years is not acceptable IMO. If the phone is free to install custom ROM unhindered, I would be more understanding, but phones are generally locked, potentially rendering them worthless if updates are not available.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    My ThinkPad x230 will soon turn 13 (since it was manufactured, I picked it up second hand from a business that went bankrupt). It’s still alive and kicking, just not with Windows. The hardware is dated, but for what I do it’s good enough. I only replaced the battery and the screen. I don’t care for instagram or any of that crap, this machine chugged along for 13 years, it will chug at least for another 5. Don’t let hardware manufacturers normalize dunking perfectly capable good hardware into a landfill because it hurts their profits. If you need any further proof just look into the old Apple hardware modding and some of the stuff they pulled off.

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    [–] 28 points 11 months ago

    Please mandate open bootloaders on devices, that's what we truly need.

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Dude, I’m so ready. Linux supports processors that old, by enthusiasts for free.

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    [–] 20 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    15 years is too long, it doesn't match the state of the industry or technological progress.

    If anything this slows down innovation which leads me to suspect the 15 year idea was though of by someone who dislikes any technical changes.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    15 years is actually reasonable.

    I have a ten year old laptop with an i7 processor, 16 GB RAM, and 1 TB SSD. It still does most things, I bought it for initially just fine. Granted this was one of the best laptops you could buy at the time.

    Apple stopped supporting it with a current version of macOS a couple of years ago sadly. It’s still possible to patch newer versions to install and run on the old machine, but it’s a bit of a hassle.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago

    Before Microsoft demanded TPM 2.0, you could install the latest version of Windows on extremely old hardware. Easily reaching that 15 years. We had this already. And Windows 11 can easily run without TPM 2.0. Microsoft just has business reasons to demand it. So I don't see how innovation is slowed down by this.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    Or an established player in the market that wants to keep competitors out (but I guess in a way that is someone who dislikes change). While legislation like this can sometimes be great (e.g. the recent changes forcing longer support for mobile phones) there comes a point where it cuts the other way and it becomes an entry barrier.

    Imo the better solution would be to legislate what happens after support ends. Like forcing the disclosure of at least some documentation that allows others to continue servicing the product or at least transfer out data and install other software on the device.

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    [–] 19 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Just require any new operating systems to support 15 year old hardware. We should require manufacturers to provide 15 years of UEFI and firmware updates too.

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    [–] 16 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Nothing says ‘circular economy’ like Microsoft stranding 400 million PCs

    This might be a silly question but would this not be a good idea for a start up company that recycle computer parts?

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    [–] 14 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    This seems backwards. Let's just assume we're always going to be willingly beholden to tech giants, and so we're going to pass a law to make our masters treat us well.

    Maybe instead campaign for a law that says all publicly funded computer resources must be reliably usable for 15 years. So you either go FOSS and save money too, or you get guarantees in writing before you hand over your hand over money to the people who won't even let you see what their code is doing on your hardware.

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    [–] 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    No, OS makers should just not make their OS bloated with useless shit, stealing your data and have arbitrary system requirements. I think 15 years of OS updates is excessive unless we're talking about servers or very specific workflows. IMO 5-10 years is enough.

    That said, for some operating systems it doesn't even make sense to support for THAT long, because how they are designed (A lot of Linux distros for example). It turns out, if you don't break users' workflow, they don't mind to upgrade.

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    [–] 13 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Of course. Make another regulation only big corps can follow. To punish them, of course. This is punishment.

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    [–] 11 points 11 months ago* (6 children)

    Microsoft's plan to end Windows 10 support next month — which may make an estimated 400 million PCs obsolete

    I don't get this. Can't those PCs update to the new version? Yes, I am very aware that win11 is a shit show and win10 was better.

    But Ubuntu also has a similar support policy for updates:

    Ubuntu LTS versions get five years of updates, while non-LTS only gets nine months.

    Would all the Linux versions out there be subjected the same 15 years of updates??

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  • [–] 41 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    No, Windows 11 added extra, unneeded hardware requirements.

    Obsolete in this case actually means obsolete. Windows 11 literally blocks the update because you do not meet requirements, such as not having a TPM.

    Technically, there are ways to bypass this, but not for a casual user (and it probably breaks some ToS)

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Yep, exactly this. You can bypass the TPM and Processor requirements, but at some point it will come back to bite someone in the butt.

    Microsoft with the 24H2 update broke Windows 11 for older systems (like Core2Duo, which are already ancient) due to a lack of required processor instructions. I've seen systems running under QEMU, and also on newer systems like the AMD Ryzen Zen1 platform experience "Unsupported Processor" BSODs preventing the system from booting.

    Even outside of that, Microsoft doesn't deploy the yearly feature roll-ups to systems with unsupported hardware, even if Windows 11 is already installed. I've seen many unsupported systems end up stuck 1-2 builds behind, and they never see the update. They have to be manually updated using the same mechanisms that got Windows 11 installed in the first place.

    Microsoft I believe, expects Windows 11 to be running on a minimum set of hardware, and that's all they are qualifying it for. So older systems are going to eat it at some point if they are used in production.

    The TPM checks are for security but, certainly not required if someone is willing to drop system security for some reason.

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    [–] 10 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    What would that mean for Linux distros? It seems like it could be a law that cuts off the competition. Like amazon who is very selectively for better working conditions when the know that no competitior can fulfull them.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Would Linux even count since it’s foss?

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    I think it does in some cases, like if you buy a System 76 computer with PopOS, or you buy a server with Red Hat.
    However if you install a Linux OS yourself, that is available free of charge, there isn't any money to claim back, and it would be illogical if there should be demands on updates.

    I think logically there needs to be money involved, so if you download PopOS you're on your own, but if you bought a computer with PopOS installed it is part of a package.

    I'm not a lawyer, but from my experience this is how things typically work.

    Edit PS:
    If it's FOSS or FLOSS there also technically isn't any owner, so there is no legal person to make a claim against.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago

    I think it would need to be a commercial product like Red Hat or preinstalled OS by the company that sell the computer.
    With a FOSS distribution that is made freely available without charge, that people download and install themselves, people are probably themselves responsible for their choice of OS.

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    [–] 9 points 11 months ago

    If the EU is going to pay for the developers, sure. I’d even go higher and say make it 50 years. Otherwise make your own OS or use Linux.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I think Microsoft should be punished with forcing to release the Windows kernel source code.

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    [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    This is a prime example of legislators not understanding technology.

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