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‘It will be the end of democracy’: Bernie Sanders on what happens if Trump wins – and how to stop him (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[+] -70 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Cannidates like Biden help fascism

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  • [–] 67 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    Biden is the only thing standing between democracy and fascism in the US. Hate it all you want,but that is the reality at the moment.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    He can play two roles, it's not as simple as either good or bad. Capitalist Democratic leadership that is dedicated more to controlling the party's left wing than defeating the country's extremist right wing has and does enable fascism. This isn't even a remotely controversial take, historically speaking. Trump owes his first presidency to the likes of Clinton and Obama, and yes, Joe Biden, who had had a long career of neoliberalism.

    That said, while Biden hasn't been, by any means, a perfect president, he has been far better than I expected, possibly the most progressive president since LBJ. And he is standing, albeit somewhat vaguely, between Trump and the Whitehouse.

    But stopping Trump isn't going to stop the slide into fascism. It can only, at best, delay things until the next election. To do that, we need a strong progressive movement to send a true leftist coalition to take over DC, and set a national tone and direction that moves away from the fascist ledge.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago

    I think the irony is that Republicans are both as dangerous and fragile as possible right now. Their coalition is fracturing badly. If we win definitively in November, it will be a strong blow against them. If we're lucky, it'll be enough to permanently splinter them and make them unviable nationally.

    That is my first and foremost goal. Render them impotent.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    But Biden has not stayed on the neo-liberal hard line globalist policies. He has recoiled from international supply chains by bringing investment to manufacturing in the US. He has relieved debt payments for college educated workers. He has invested in infrastructure for transportation of goods as well as electricity which tackles the problem of emissions as well as cost of energy. I believe these moves are a reaction to understanding that life is hard and globalism left a lot of people behind.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Draft Jon Stewart.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    I would vote for him in a heartbeat, but I wouldn't bet on it happening.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Me either, and it's a real shame. The far right would go into beautiful seizures, but he would get massive turnout from pretty much everyone else.

    He's a far cry from being as far left as I would like, but I really wouldn't care. He would be more capable of actually fixing things than anyone else I can think of, even Bernie. Can you imagine the hell most of Congress would face to oppose him on pretty much anything?

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  • [+] -18 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    Biden isn't standing between anything...he's a speed bump. We still lost our reproductive rights, Trump's tax cuts are still in place, we are still sending money to Israel and not the Ukraine.

    Biden sucks. Don't vote for Trump...but god it's fucking depressing that the only alternative is a guy with Alzheimer's and a meme army for political clout.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 years ago

    We lost our reproductive rights because of judges Trump installed. Biden has no power to change that. Trump's tax cuts were passed by Congress and can only be undone by Congress, not Biden. Your criticism of Biden's actions regarding Israel is justified, but let's not pretend Trump wouldn't be much worse. Yeah, Biden is old but he is more coherent and aware now than Trump was 20 years ago.

    I wasn't enthusiastic about Biden last election, but he has easily been the most effective president of my lifetime. He got us out of COVID without the economy crashing. He put hundreds of millions into mental health counselors for schools. He massively accelerated our shift to renewable energy. He has put major efforts into domestic microchip production. He put limits on insulin costs. He got a national electric vehicle charging network funded. He got funding passed for infrastructure improvements including bridges, tunnels, and broadband expansion. He has increased our defenses against cyber attacks and extended political channels for addressing them around the world. He has created more than 800,000 new jobs and gotten 6 million more people healthcare coverage. He passed legislation creating a 15% minimum tax rate on billion dollar corporations.

    https://navigatorresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/October-24-Few-Have-Heard-1280x720.jpg

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    The difference is one has caved to public pressure and kept many promises. The other creates negative public-cult sentiment and keeps no promises.

    Yes, it's frustrating only having these choices right now. However, it is important to point out that we still have choices. People with sentiment just like yours, with a footnote that says "Not gonna vote, because [insert reason here]." are a part of the problem, when they could become a part of the start of a solution. One years, and probably a couple election cycles long, yet still potentially a positive way forward.

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  • [+] -8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    You lost your reproductive rights because a bunch of Sanders bros decided they'd rather let Trump win than vote for Hillary.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I see this opinion a lot, but I honestly don't think Sanders or his campaign were to blame.

    She lost far more centrist votes than she did left-wing votes.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago*

    I mean I still literally see tons of people on the internet who are salty about it and openly use 2016 as an excuse to not vote for Democrats. Granted, a portion of these people were trolls then and are trolls now, but the sentiment is too common to dismiss.

    And whether or not it is true, it should still be a cautionary tale in pragmatism. I personally voted (and volunteered) for Bernie, but then fought for Clinton because it was plainly obvious what was on the line. I just wish more people had fought for Roe, if not for Clinton at that time, instead of waiting for the obvious outcome to get engaged. And it makes me see red to think that we are about to walk right into the exact same, easily preventable trap

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Am I the only one that remembers the DNC was sued over that...and Sanders won?

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    Over what exactly? The only lawsuit the Sanders campaign filed was over a misunderstanding over how a DNC voter database was configured. Both candidates had access to the same modeling and turnout software, and the Sanders campaign was mistakenly able to access data and models Clinton had generated because the system was not configured correctly. He sued when that mistake was corrected, but quickly dropped the suit when the issue was clarified.

    The lawsuit against Wasserman-Shultz was from a voter group, and it was dismissed. Maybe I'm missing one though. Can you jog my memory?

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You're missing a crucial part of that process I think. Milquetoast candidates can cause voter apathy, yes. It's the apathy that helps fascism.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 years ago

    The death of democracy also helps fascism, and it's widely agreed upon that there is no democracy without freedom of expression.

    It should follow then, that if someone were to suppress freedom of expression, then they are contributing to the end of democracy, no matter what ends they're trying to meet. That is to say, the ends don't justify the means. If someone contributes to the end of democracy while trying to fight someone that they see as the villain of democracy, then it's still fair to say they contributed to the end of democracy, no matter how noble you think the goal.

    So, at the moment, I would say the biggest threat to democracy would be if a federal administration began working with corporations and social media to enact censorship - to destroy freedom of expression.

    Regardless of who Biden's enemy is, whether you think what these people were saying was unpalatable, or even if it's your opinion that they're dangerous, they didn't break the law with their speech and therefor the government had no right to censor.

    If you claim to be for democracy and freedom of expression, then any claim of defence that these should be exceptions would simply be hypocritical, and a violation of your democratic principles. This is getting more and more common, and we can't have democracy if it's common for people to violate their democratic principles.

    I repeat: we can't have democracy if it's common for people to violate their democratic principles.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I'm afraid to ask what you think a vote for Trump helps.

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  • [+] -14 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Please stop being so dramatic, you shouldn't be afraid to talk to other people about their political opinions.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    It's not fear, it's that no one wants to read the same half assed logic that boils down to actively supporting efforts of conservatives to put Trump back in power. This shit strategy is getting old.

    The winner of the 2024 general election for POTUS will be Donald Trump or Joe Biden. In a FPTP system any eligible vote not cast for Joe Biden is supporting Donald Trump, a member of the minority party. This is math. You are going to support one of these candidates if you're eligible to vote. It is mathematically impossible to sit out and not have influence.

    Not a single one of the commenters trying to depress Democratic votes has provided a single alternative argument to these facts. It's not a real argument. It's just trying to create apathy so conservatives can gain more power.

    You can talk about Democratic principles all day long, voting is a strategic play. And if you were actually trying to defend Democratic principles you would take the action that results in the least harm, which is Joe Biden, not Donald Trump.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    You are discussing strategy to avoid the most harm. Harm avoidance. That's fear. You are literally describing fear without using the word fear and acting like I was the one misunderstanding. You need to understand that you are acting on fear. It's ridiculous, and I was right to point it out.

    You mentioned my other comment in passing like it meant nothing to you, then say that no one hear has given any real arguments? Maybe you just need to read in better faith. You clearly don't have any respect for my concerns with Biden if your comment demonstrates a complete unwillingness to even entertain the thought.

    Canadian btw, you don't need to convince of anything to do with voting strategy anyway. Wasted energy. I just think you guys are being really silly and can't see the forest from the trees. You could probably use third party observers to get your heads on straight.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Zero interest in trying to convince you of anything. I just want everyone else to understand that listening to you acts against their own interests. Either you don't understand how our electoral system works, or you're misleading people to try and put your thumb on the scale in support of some pretty horrible people.

    Waiting anytime for an explanation of how Trump getting elected benefits the situation in Gaza btw. Or do we not care about that now because that would be acting out of fear?

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