Data Is Beautiful

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[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 years ago (1 child)

It wouldn't make sense to ask people are you conservative or conservative, would it?

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[+] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

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[+] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses

How do you describe the right wing ideology of liberalism in a not confusing way without rejecting liberalism=left as a definition?

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[+] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 17 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 child)

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Easy, I use political science terms and traditional analysis

I literally use "liberal" to mean liberal capitalist because I read political economics books. When you say "political science" and "traditional analysis" you are referring to something that is a lot less universal than you think it is.

Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left? You didn't answer my question you just took a swipe.

The important thing to remember is that liberal vs. conservative is an ideological midpoint for the discourse being discussed and/or measured

Except this is a very narrow overton window(more like an arrow slit) and if you limit your discussion to it you miss a lot of context and analysis.

Which is good, because the overall trend throughout history is leftward and a relative system is able to both capture that as well as provide descriptive value for a given measurement period.

This is kinda unfalsifiable

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[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Also like how do you talk about liberalism and neoliberalism in a non confusing way while also claiming liberalism is left?

You make it clear with your audience that you're talking about the "liberal" in the economic sense and not "liberal" in the philosophical sense. From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative), and as the person previously mentioned, in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx's philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted), just like there are liberal conservatives (believe in small/efficient State but individual freedoms) and conservative conservatives (social conservatives).

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

You make it clear with your audience that you’re talking about the “liberal” in the economic sense and not “liberal” in the philosophical sense.

Liberalism as a philosophy is connected to the economic structure? Are you referring to a different philosophy and calling it liberal?

From a philosophical perspective is the difference between being pro changes (liberal) vs being against changes (conservative)

Okay, yes, you are. Liberalism is literally the status quo.

in this sense you could say there are conservative communists (want to follow Marx’s philosophy to the letter) and liberal communists (believe in the basic principles but feel some things need to be adjusted)

You literally can't be a marxist and take Marx as dogma. Marxism is a process based ideology.

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https://www.diffen.com/difference/Conservative_vs_Liberal

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

There, maybe you'll manage to understand if we dumb it down for you 🙂

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

The issue is that your definition is "dumbed down" to the point that it loses utility when discussing politics and conceals cultural hegemony.

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[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

No it doesn't because, you just have to specify what you mean because the word has multiple definitions and in OP's example it's the definition I've provided that's being used and you should have known because of the context (liberalism as opposed to conservatism).

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Of course the word has multiple definitions, that definition just obscures the shit out of everything and isn't very useful. It literally obscures that conservatives are also liberals (in the more meaningful sense) and obscures the difference between left and liberal.

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[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

It literally obscures that conservatives are also liberals (in the more meaningful sense) and obscures the difference between left and liberal.

Only if you use another definition of the word.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

How do you talk about liberal hegemony (marxist definition) while using the nonsense definition in a non-bulky way?

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[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

First of all, I already answered that question many times and second of all, you calling it a "nonsense" definition shows that you're just arguing in bad faith because you're not ready to accept that you just didn't know that the word has multiple definitions depending on context.

Good night.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

No, no you haven't, you've just been smug.

But I'm glad we are the point of the pigeon shitting all over the board and flying away, if that is how you insist on acting.

you’re just arguing in bad faith because you’re not ready to accept that you just didn’t know that the word has multiple definitions depending on context.

Do you think anyone born in the US doesn't know the most common definition? The rejection of it is because it is a bad definition that serves to obscure how politics actually functions. I also literally reference this, but you insist that I dont know that words can have multiple meanings. Who is arguing in bad faith?

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[–] PatMustard@feddit.uk 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

the right wing ideology of liberalism

WTF do you think "liberalism" means? It's the opposite of authoritarianism, it's not really left or right.

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[–] banneryear1868@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago

Liberalism is individualist above all in my mind. What advances your personal freedom is the best thing for everyone. Neoliberalism is a post-Keynesian consensus that believes this is most achievable through equal opportunity in the free market.

I also like Phil Ochs definition of liberal from the 60s, "ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center when it affects them personally.

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Liberalism is an economic system.

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[–] PatMustard@feddit.uk 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

OK, that's a new one to me. Know that when you use the word in most contexts that's not what people think you mean by it!

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

Well, most people have been miseducated on politics and the economy in the United States.

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[–] PatMustard@feddit.uk 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

Sure mate, "everyone's wrong but you"

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

Most people in the imperial core are miseducated in politics, that is not "everyone", that is a small minority of people.

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[–] PatMustard@feddit.uk 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

the imperial core

ಠ_ಠ

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[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Is that your normal reaction when people bring up imperialism during a political conversation?

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[–] PatMustard@feddit.uk 2 points 2 years ago

Just a term I've never heard of which definitely implies some particular views. Anyway, I'm not here to sling shit, I would actually like to know what your views are so feel free to give me the quick pitch. Don't expect to convert me, but I don't want to just dismiss what you're saying just because it sounds a bit mad without context.