▲ 140 ▼ Germany news: Pension overhaul may push retirement age to 70 (www.dw.com) submitted 1 month ago by CAVOK@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.org 59 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] the_wise_wolf@feddit.org -47 points 1 month ago (5 children) Because the current system is unsustainable and if it isn't adjusted, it can only end in a disaster. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 58 points 1 month ago (3 children) it can only end in a disaster. Having to work until you are fucking 70 already is a disaster permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (2 children) My body is aching, and I'm not even 40. Couple of weeks back I listed something not that heavy, but my back went out and I could not walk for three days (all fine now). Knowing that I might not be able to work until I'm 70 the cist of living etc., there's a high probability that I'm going to take my own life. It's been fum while it lasted, though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Save up and get out if you dont like your job. I know someone who stopped at 50 and now just works as a skiing instructor and wine farmer permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] UpperBroccoli@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Just stop being poor -- you, apparently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago He certainly isn't wealthy, but he enjoys this lifestyle much more. Small car, no big journeys, no house, ... but constantly doing something he likes permalink fedilink source parent [–] genau@europe.pub 0 points 1 month ago GG. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) I suppose it depend on the work you do, but it is inevitable that if we live longer we somehow work longer. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago (1 child) Lmao no it is not. This is not a rule of physics or nature. This is a condition willfully brought upon us by the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (2 children) So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible. Care to explain how ? Don't come up with the "tax the rich", they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else. While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don't see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 child) explain how Productivity gains. that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else Why not, though? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn't actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don't want to just "tax the rich", that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent [+] the_wise_wolf@feddit.org -8 points 1 month ago (3 children) And people are getting older (and stay healthier). Something has to give. Boomers are the largest generation in German history. Since then every generation has shrunk. Fewer workers have to support more retirees. We have been seeing this demographic shift coming and still have taken on more and more dead. And yes, I desperately want the rich to pay taxes, but that alone will not fix the issue. Not by a long shot. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) We also have much better technology and produce much more stuff with significantly less labour. This is not really about the rich people paying taxes, it's more about the fact that if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Because you pay people for the time they work, not for what they produce. You work 8 hours a day and you are paid for these 8 hours basically without taking into account of how much you produce. In the end in a sane system what you set aside while you work should be what pay your pension when you will stop working (but it is not true anymore). You cannot expect to work less or equal and live longer and keep the same standard of living Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. No, we cannot. Many pension systems have been designed thinking that for every retired person there will be more than one worker. It worked at the time, when families had 3 or more children, it not work now when families have just one or two children, if even. permalink fedilink source parent [–] BigShammy80@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago A few people have so much money, they could easily pay for elderly support and rent if you tax them But no, let the poor idiots work till 80... you see how this is wrong? permalink fedilink source parent [–] starchylemming@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago boomers aee already mostly retired you idiot its us who will pay for their early retirement while we wont get the same and since we will work forevrr, our kids won't have kids because they have no grandparents to support them during their retirement nobody will care for us when we are old permalink fedilink source parent [–] lime@feddit.nu 26 points 1 month ago (1 child) i thought productivity was up across the board? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) Exactly, the claim of disaster is moronic but typical for many politicians. It disregards the fact that many elderly are way more self helped, so the life expectancy increasing doesn't have a similar requirement for care and healthcare. And productivity per capita is increasing. We have higher pension age here (Denmark) too than we had in the 70's. But way more women are working and automation and computers and generally improved methodologies have resulted in way way higher productivity. We could live with the standards of the 70's and only work 5 hours per week, or have a pension age of 40. The only reason to raise the pension age is the ever ongoing race for more wealth. What we have now is slavery to the 1%, who take in 50% of the wealth generated! Just getting rid of them, and we would only have to work half, and maintain the same wealth for the rest. permalink fedilink source parent [–] DrakeAlbrecht@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago Eliminate the contribution cap. Instant 20% increase in available pension budget. permalink fedilink source parent [–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 10 points 1 month ago Why is it currently unsustainable? Because 50% or your salary are instantly taken out of your paycheck for other taxes, which you cannot invest in your own savings or towards your own house? Because Germany does not let foreigners in to work and contribute to the retirement fund, because foreigners are very scary? Because taxing the rich and preventing tax fraud would instantly increase the budget by a few billion euros that could be given to the retirement fund? Because rents and home ownership are unaffordable because a lot of homes are in the hands of investment firms and rich people who try to get the most money out of renting, leading to raising costs that eats more than 50% of the renters remaining income each month? All of the above? permalink fedilink source parent [+] tal@lemmy.today -17 points 1 month ago (3 children) It's better than driving the state budget into the ground, though I still think that it'd be better to get the birth rate up to a sustainable level. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Kaerkob@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago How are you going to convince people to have babies while continuously siphoning off more and more resources from the average person? permalink fedilink source parent [–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 8 points 1 month ago* Having children means finding a large enough and affordable house, which is a nightmare in most cities with a lot of competition. Then you have to pay for childcare, extra food, extra utilities and other expenses. This would ruin a lot of young people who don't earn a lot or already struggle with money, and don't have rich parents to back them up. permalink fedilink source parent [–] baines@lemmy.cafe 2 points 1 month ago if we stopped cutting fucking taxes you derps permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 58 points 1 month ago (3 children) it can only end in a disaster. Having to work until you are fucking 70 already is a disaster permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (2 children) My body is aching, and I'm not even 40. Couple of weeks back I listed something not that heavy, but my back went out and I could not walk for three days (all fine now). Knowing that I might not be able to work until I'm 70 the cist of living etc., there's a high probability that I'm going to take my own life. It's been fum while it lasted, though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Save up and get out if you dont like your job. I know someone who stopped at 50 and now just works as a skiing instructor and wine farmer permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] UpperBroccoli@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Just stop being poor -- you, apparently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago He certainly isn't wealthy, but he enjoys this lifestyle much more. Small car, no big journeys, no house, ... but constantly doing something he likes permalink fedilink source parent [–] genau@europe.pub 0 points 1 month ago GG. permalink fedilink source parent [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) I suppose it depend on the work you do, but it is inevitable that if we live longer we somehow work longer. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago (1 child) Lmao no it is not. This is not a rule of physics or nature. This is a condition willfully brought upon us by the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (2 children) So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible. Care to explain how ? Don't come up with the "tax the rich", they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else. While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don't see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 child) explain how Productivity gains. that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else Why not, though? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn't actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don't want to just "tax the rich", that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent [+] the_wise_wolf@feddit.org -8 points 1 month ago (3 children) And people are getting older (and stay healthier). Something has to give. Boomers are the largest generation in German history. Since then every generation has shrunk. Fewer workers have to support more retirees. We have been seeing this demographic shift coming and still have taken on more and more dead. And yes, I desperately want the rich to pay taxes, but that alone will not fix the issue. Not by a long shot. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) We also have much better technology and produce much more stuff with significantly less labour. This is not really about the rich people paying taxes, it's more about the fact that if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Because you pay people for the time they work, not for what they produce. You work 8 hours a day and you are paid for these 8 hours basically without taking into account of how much you produce. In the end in a sane system what you set aside while you work should be what pay your pension when you will stop working (but it is not true anymore). You cannot expect to work less or equal and live longer and keep the same standard of living Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. No, we cannot. Many pension systems have been designed thinking that for every retired person there will be more than one worker. It worked at the time, when families had 3 or more children, it not work now when families have just one or two children, if even. permalink fedilink source parent [–] BigShammy80@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago A few people have so much money, they could easily pay for elderly support and rent if you tax them But no, let the poor idiots work till 80... you see how this is wrong? permalink fedilink source parent [–] starchylemming@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago boomers aee already mostly retired you idiot its us who will pay for their early retirement while we wont get the same and since we will work forevrr, our kids won't have kids because they have no grandparents to support them during their retirement nobody will care for us when we are old permalink fedilink source parent
[–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (2 children) My body is aching, and I'm not even 40. Couple of weeks back I listed something not that heavy, but my back went out and I could not walk for three days (all fine now). Knowing that I might not be able to work until I'm 70 the cist of living etc., there's a high probability that I'm going to take my own life. It's been fum while it lasted, though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Save up and get out if you dont like your job. I know someone who stopped at 50 and now just works as a skiing instructor and wine farmer permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] UpperBroccoli@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Just stop being poor -- you, apparently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago He certainly isn't wealthy, but he enjoys this lifestyle much more. Small car, no big journeys, no house, ... but constantly doing something he likes permalink fedilink source parent [–] genau@europe.pub 0 points 1 month ago GG. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Save up and get out if you dont like your job. I know someone who stopped at 50 and now just works as a skiing instructor and wine farmer permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] UpperBroccoli@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Just stop being poor -- you, apparently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago He certainly isn't wealthy, but he enjoys this lifestyle much more. Small car, no big journeys, no house, ... but constantly doing something he likes permalink fedilink source parent
[–] UpperBroccoli@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Just stop being poor -- you, apparently permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago He certainly isn't wealthy, but he enjoys this lifestyle much more. Small car, no big journeys, no house, ... but constantly doing something he likes permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kuerbiskernoel@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago He certainly isn't wealthy, but he enjoys this lifestyle much more. Small car, no big journeys, no house, ... but constantly doing something he likes permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) I suppose it depend on the work you do, but it is inevitable that if we live longer we somehow work longer. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago (1 child) Lmao no it is not. This is not a rule of physics or nature. This is a condition willfully brought upon us by the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (2 children) So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible. Care to explain how ? Don't come up with the "tax the rich", they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else. While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don't see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 child) explain how Productivity gains. that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else Why not, though? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn't actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don't want to just "tax the rich", that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago (1 child) Lmao no it is not. This is not a rule of physics or nature. This is a condition willfully brought upon us by the rich. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (2 children) So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible. Care to explain how ? Don't come up with the "tax the rich", they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else. While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don't see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 child) explain how Productivity gains. that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else Why not, though? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn't actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don't want to just "tax the rich", that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (2 children) So, let me understand. You consider a situation where we live longer, we (want to) work less and we keep the same living condition (after retiring) possible. Care to explain how ? Don't come up with the "tax the rich", they must pay their fair share of taxes but that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else. While I agree that the higher productivity of the work should be paid more, I don't see how this difference can offset 15 or more years of additional retirement, even less if, like you suggest, we want to work less years. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 child) explain how Productivity gains. that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else Why not, though? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn't actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don't want to just "tax the rich", that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kossa@feddit.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 child) explain how Productivity gains. that does not means that they should pay for the longer retirement of everyone else Why not, though? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Productivity gains. And on what your pay would be based ? The hours you work or the productivity ? As I said, I agree that some of the productivity gains tranfer to the worker pay. I simply do not belive that even if this trasfer happens then you can retire earlier having a longer live expectancy. We can maybe work less every day for the same pay, like we work 7 hours a day and the hours we pool are used to hire some more workers, but that would not change the problem with retiring earlier and living longer (which are not problems per se) Why not, though? Because that could be applied also to you, I bet you are richer than someone else. In the end, once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. How much money is left to the someone is irrelevant. We can discuss how to make the rich pay their fair share of taxes eventually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) retire earlier having a longer live expectancy You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. once someone pay their fair share of taxes the question is over. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that's cool. And to what a 'fair share' is...that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there's that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) You asked about maintaining wealth and not expanding wealth. Productivity is output per work. If the output per work grows, we need less work to maintain the current output --> workers can chill more. Whether they retire earlier or have a 4-day-week. A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer. There would be a imbalance between the time we work (that gets shorter) and the time we spend retired (which get longer). But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money. If we talk about a couple of years then ok, maybe we can retire earlier if we get paid more (given the higher productivity), but if we talk about longer period then I don't think we could be find a stable solution. The only real solution, in my opinion, is that you can retire after how many years you want but your pension is proportional to what you set aside during your working life (with the state that only pay the gap between what you get and a minimum level of sussistence). This way you can work as long as you want and if you want to retire earlier this decision is not paid by others. The additional bonus is that I think that in the end people would try to be paid more to put aside more (if they want to retire early) Right now that surplus of productivity is just grabbed by the owning class. Not totally I think. I am sure I have a better life than my parent (at the same age) or my grandparents. Yeah, right. And if our society wants to take that fair share to expand retirement for everybody, that’s cool. And to what a ‘fair share’ is…that depends. In Germany in the 50ies they basically took 50% of everybodys assets and had an maximum income tax bracket of 95% (which would start at 850k € yearly income today, if they had kept it), literally a max income, if you want. And apparently people thought that to be fair, so there’s that. If people thought that to be fair then the 95% tax bracket would be still be there. Obviously, no one thinks it’s “fair” to work for about 1 million euros and end up with the same salary as someone who works to earn 10% of that amount. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there's plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. But to pay for the longer retire time you need somehow have put aside more money Yep, if society burdens the individual with the planning of their retirement economics. You could also just expand the pension system, or have whatever funny idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Look, if we think about western, wealthy societies: if e.g. in Germany tomorrow we have like 2 million more pensioners out of the sudden...do we have a problem supplying them? As in, will supermarkets struggle to provide the food, so that they can eat? Do the houses they live in just vanish? Are clothing stores immediately empty, and they need to freeze during winter? I'd say no, that wouldn't happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, "obviously no one" 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. But those are "no one", I see. I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)...that's where 'fair' stops. It's funny, that everybody wants a 'Wirtschaftswunder' back. As it happens, said 'Wirtschaftswunder' was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no 'Wirtschaftswunder' for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) A 4 day week could be done, but I still think that we cannot retire earlier since we live longer Does not compute. If you can reduce your work load by 20% (4 days instead of 5), you could retire earlier instead. When in life you reduce those 20% does not matter. And life expectancy is not expected to grow by 20% out of the sudden. So there’s plenty of room. If anything, life expectancy will shrink dramatically with climate change. Work load != working life duration. I can work 4 days a week and produce the same output, no doubt, and I can be paid the same, no problem here. Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked, resulting in a lower pension contribution which should be paid for more years. And this is the "problem", in total I contribute less (less years worked) but I want to get back more. Put it another way, you go to deposit in a bank 1000 euros, you get some interested (for sake of simplicity let's say 1%) but at the end of the year you want a result like you deposited 1500 euros instead of the 1000, and the difference to be paid by someone else with more money. I’d say no, that wouldn’t happen. They would only struggle, because somehow they would not have the money to buy those things, the society still has the means to supply them. So it just is a matter of monetary distribution. And the distribution of said monetary resources is just shit currently, namely to the disadvantage of the poor, the working people and pensioneers. We could fix that. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more. And while I agree that the distribution of monetary resources is shit I don't think is the root cause. Again, you cannot think that you can work less years to retire younger while keeping the same standard of living for a longer retirement period. Or better, you can wanto to do it and leave the consequences to someone in the future. Obviously, no one thinks Yeah, right, “obviously no one” 🙄. Except for a lot of people that is not fair. Then why it is not still here ? But those are “no one”, I see. People get the government they voted for... I, for once, am fine with different compensations. But when people work and cannot afford basic necessities, while others rake in thousands or even millions per day (and even pay less taxes on average, because the tax system favors income from assets over income from work)…that’s where ‘fair’ stops. So the correct solution is to make possible for the working people to be paid more, not to go after the rich just because they are rich. I never undestood the logic that to elevate someone you need to bring down someone else. It’s funny, that everybody wants a ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ back. As it happens, said ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ was happening, because the state redistributed wealth to a crazy high degree. But nobody wants to make that connection, because that would mean an ugly fight with the owners. So no ‘Wirtschaftswunder’ for us, instead low salaries and crumbling infrastructure ¯_(ツ)_/¯. The "Wirtschaftswunder" happened because there were also the conditions to happen, not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Then I want to to retire earlier, so fewer years worked While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯_(ツ)_/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. not just because the state redistributed wealth left and right. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. Right now, the surplus is pocketed and 'invested' in real estate, or shares. That does not help anybody. If you hand that money to people with no assets, they buy shit. Cars, food, gardening tools, whatever. Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) While I believe, that even a 4 day week and earlier retirement is possible, that was not the premise in our discussion. The premise was, that one could reduce work time. And if you can do a 4 day week, you could also do a 5-day week and retire earlier. After all, the output produced during your lifetime would be the same. So, if one is possible, the other is as well. I think you are confusing work output with working time. If we look only at what you produced during your working life then you are right, we can probably retire earlier having already produced our share of "something". The problem is that what we put aside is not proportional to the output (rightly) but to the time we work so if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund (whatever it is) while expecting to live longer at the same time. And while this can work in small numbers, it not work if you extend to the whole society. The society has means to supply them at a basic level of sussistence, no more Even more. Do you think Amazon would run out of flatscreens in our hypothetical scenario? I doubt it. Probably not everybody could receive a 70 ft Yacht, but the vast majority could not afford that nowadays or if they worked, idk, three years longer ¯(ツ)/¯. We could easily sustain the hypouhetical retirees life standard, ez. No, but who pay for them ? Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example: if we consider to tax the rich for 10.000.000.000 euros/year this means that every retired in Italy (about 23.000.000) get about 435 euro/year. Even if the number of retirees whose pensions need to be supplemented were halved we just get a little less of 1000 euro/year. Too less to have any significance. I think you should find the money some other ways. That was the main contributing factor, though. It is easier, when the country is in ruins and everybody is piss poor. But after the recent years we approach the latter once again. But with what the redistribution helps: money is spend fast. That is important for the economy to flourish and everybody profiting from it. I don't see how we are approaching a similar scenario, if nothing else because we are not a pile of rubble again (hopefully). Then production is expanded, workers are paid more. As a government you have to make the money flow around. Except production is no more here, so you cannot pay the worker more as there are no (well, less) workers. Easiest way to achieve that? Be Robin Hood and give to the poor. They will spend the money. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach and you will be left with nothing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kossa@feddit.org 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if we retire earlier we miss some time during which we built our retirement fund What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. See that graph: Productivity gains vs. salaries. That is what was stolen since the mid-seventies. Salaries, on average, should be double as high. You could basically set aside one month of living per month (and earn interest on it). Where did the monetary gains go instead? Into assets of the wealthy, they just did not vanish under mysterious circumstances. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Tax the rich ? Right. Let's make an example Let's make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it's hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. Take as an example the Quandt family: they "earn" 500 million cash(!) on BMW dividends alone, but pay less than 1% tax on those earnings. Why do I pay like 32% on average on my income from work, while they almost pay nothing for doing nothing? Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. how we are approaching a similar scenario I don't know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Funnily enough prime "Wirtschaftswunder" was in the sixeties, the rubble already gone. Except production is no more here Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It's not like there's nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago What? If the worker gets a fair share of the productivity gains, they have higher salaries. They can put more in their retirement fund and could work less. Ok, so put some numbers: how much more should one be paid to be able to retire, say, 5 years earlier and have a longer retirement period (Eu life expecanty, on average, is 82) ? Obviously you need to consider the same standards of living. People just underestimate how hard they got robbed, if they even consider that they were robbed, that is. Or simply understand that it is not possible to have it all. Let’s make a better example. Why only 10 billion per year? Two reasons (based on Italian data): you want to tax only the rich (but we should define rich) if you go at 100, you are taxing the rich at about the 5% of GDP and it do not seems a good idea. Like, the private assets of German citizens are estimated around 5-6 trillion Euro. If we estimate like 6% interest (long-term gains on the financial market, evan higher the last few years, but granted, it’s hot), that is 320 billion capital gains alone, per year. Take a meager 10% and you have 32 billion already, or you could go harder, why not? After all people still earn money. True, but that include the private assets of everyone, not only the rich, so it is a value you cannot consider. Moreover, even considering these numbers, you end with about 1700 euro a year for every retired, even less if you increase the number of retirees. Tax inheritance accordingly. People can inherit like 100 million and never have to think about anything in their life. Why should they inherit billions? Inheritance tax is the most outrageous tax imaginable in my opinion. Moreover, these billions are (or should be) already taxed, you are not creating anything new when you inherit something. You are paying for your grief basically. 100 billion estimated losses through tax evasion estimated in Germany, each year. Then maybe, before going to a war to tax the few rich, recover every euro from tax evasion. And I bet that the vast majority is not from the rich If we do all that, and still cannot afford less work for everybody, OK, I am convinced then. But not before the rich get taxed properly. You never put numbers on your ideas. I don’t know, have you looked around? Public infrastructure crumbles, people cannot afford basic necessities anymore. Yes, and I also see people who actively fight against new infrastructures so ? Investments by the state are usually very locally sourced, as the state pays workers here, or invests in infrastructure. You buy flatscreens in China, allright, but you build streets, railways, bridges and public pools right here. Ok, but at some point you will run out of new streets, bridges and railways to build. Ok, there will be maintenance but at some point in time the state has to stop. Public investments are a nice short term solution but nothing a state can sustain on a long period. What you would need is local production, so build the flatscreens locally so people have a work and could pay for something else, also build locally. Have you noted that these problems started in the exact same moment the production were moved in cheaper countries ? For the first or second year, then the rich would have nothing more or, more probable, moved their money out of your reach It’s not like there’s nothing you could do against that. Tax duties come with citizenship, like the U.S. does. Let me explain you how rich people are rich. It is not because they have billions on their personal bank account. But since they have shares of company that are valued billions (which is a hypothetical value anyway) they can go to a bank and say "look, I own shares in a company that are valued at 2 billions, can you lend me 100 million secured by these shares ?" Then they simply pay back the debt. And debt generally is not taxed. BTW, you can renounce citizenship. Tax when people shift their assets away. A lot of assets cannot be shifted anyway. Work only the first time. Once I shift my assets outside your country, you have no way to reach them. And I bet there are dozens of legal ways to protect my assets once they are out. And even more illegal way hard to prove or discover. Look at the Schwartz or Abrecht families. Their assets are like thousands of supermarkets. Can they just pack them up and move them elsewhere? I doubt it. Carrefour exited the Italian market: the simply sold the supermarkets (sometime at a loss) and now in Italy they have pretty nothing (just a smaller office that handle the brand, for now). And they paid nothing since they earn nothing in Italy. They can simply do the same thing and then move their money to another country. Or they can simply close them. It is a myth that since you have something physical then you cannot get rid of it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn't actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? I don't want to just "tax the rich", that is merely the first step. The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 1 point 1 month ago Well the root problem is of course money, as always. We are already producing enough to feed everyone on earth for example. True. But since number must go up, the metric for rich assholes isn’t actually productivity or needs being met, but growth. I don't think you can simply decouple productivity and growth. For decades and decades we have automated more and more and yet work has not become less. Where do you think this surplus of value, created by automation and additional work by the working class ended up? Partially to the rich but partially (a maybe too small part, I agree) to the workers, to pay for all the new things we have in our life. We don't live like our parents or our grandparents honestly. I don’t want to just “tax the rich”, that is merely the first step. As long as the tax is proportional and not something like "you are a billionaire, so we will grab everything over 1.000.000 a year" I agree, else you will end up with nothing. And not because billionaires will flee the country but because nobody will care to go over the 1.000.000/year (or whatever limit you decide) The goal has to be abolishing a system which not only allows for this concentration of wealth but is designed to do so. To replace it with what ? I honestly don't see a better system actually. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] the_wise_wolf@feddit.org -8 points 1 month ago (3 children) And people are getting older (and stay healthier). Something has to give. Boomers are the largest generation in German history. Since then every generation has shrunk. Fewer workers have to support more retirees. We have been seeing this demographic shift coming and still have taken on more and more dead. And yes, I desperately want the rich to pay taxes, but that alone will not fix the issue. Not by a long shot. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) We also have much better technology and produce much more stuff with significantly less labour. This is not really about the rich people paying taxes, it's more about the fact that if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Because you pay people for the time they work, not for what they produce. You work 8 hours a day and you are paid for these 8 hours basically without taking into account of how much you produce. In the end in a sane system what you set aside while you work should be what pay your pension when you will stop working (but it is not true anymore). You cannot expect to work less or equal and live longer and keep the same standard of living Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. No, we cannot. Many pension systems have been designed thinking that for every retired person there will be more than one worker. It worked at the time, when families had 3 or more children, it not work now when families have just one or two children, if even. permalink fedilink source parent [–] BigShammy80@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago A few people have so much money, they could easily pay for elderly support and rent if you tax them But no, let the poor idiots work till 80... you see how this is wrong? permalink fedilink source parent [–] starchylemming@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago boomers aee already mostly retired you idiot its us who will pay for their early retirement while we wont get the same and since we will work forevrr, our kids won't have kids because they have no grandparents to support them during their retirement nobody will care for us when we are old permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ranzispa@mander.xyz 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) We also have much better technology and produce much more stuff with significantly less labour. This is not really about the rich people paying taxes, it's more about the fact that if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Because you pay people for the time they work, not for what they produce. You work 8 hours a day and you are paid for these 8 hours basically without taking into account of how much you produce. In the end in a sane system what you set aside while you work should be what pay your pension when you will stop working (but it is not true anymore). You cannot expect to work less or equal and live longer and keep the same standard of living Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. No, we cannot. Many pension systems have been designed thinking that for every retired person there will be more than one worker. It worked at the time, when families had 3 or more children, it not work now when families have just one or two children, if even. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gian@lemmy.grys.it 0 points 1 month ago if we have better technology and production why do people have to work more? Because you pay people for the time they work, not for what they produce. You work 8 hours a day and you are paid for these 8 hours basically without taking into account of how much you produce. In the end in a sane system what you set aside while you work should be what pay your pension when you will stop working (but it is not true anymore). You cannot expect to work less or equal and live longer and keep the same standard of living Indeed, boomers are more; but I think we are able to sustain their lives without them having to work. No, we cannot. Many pension systems have been designed thinking that for every retired person there will be more than one worker. It worked at the time, when families had 3 or more children, it not work now when families have just one or two children, if even. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BigShammy80@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago A few people have so much money, they could easily pay for elderly support and rent if you tax them But no, let the poor idiots work till 80... you see how this is wrong? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] starchylemming@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago boomers aee already mostly retired you idiot its us who will pay for their early retirement while we wont get the same and since we will work forevrr, our kids won't have kids because they have no grandparents to support them during their retirement nobody will care for us when we are old permalink fedilink source parent
[–] lime@feddit.nu 26 points 1 month ago (1 child) i thought productivity was up across the board? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) Exactly, the claim of disaster is moronic but typical for many politicians. It disregards the fact that many elderly are way more self helped, so the life expectancy increasing doesn't have a similar requirement for care and healthcare. And productivity per capita is increasing. We have higher pension age here (Denmark) too than we had in the 70's. But way more women are working and automation and computers and generally improved methodologies have resulted in way way higher productivity. We could live with the standards of the 70's and only work 5 hours per week, or have a pension age of 40. The only reason to raise the pension age is the ever ongoing race for more wealth. What we have now is slavery to the 1%, who take in 50% of the wealth generated! Just getting rid of them, and we would only have to work half, and maintain the same wealth for the rest. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) Exactly, the claim of disaster is moronic but typical for many politicians. It disregards the fact that many elderly are way more self helped, so the life expectancy increasing doesn't have a similar requirement for care and healthcare. And productivity per capita is increasing. We have higher pension age here (Denmark) too than we had in the 70's. But way more women are working and automation and computers and generally improved methodologies have resulted in way way higher productivity. We could live with the standards of the 70's and only work 5 hours per week, or have a pension age of 40. The only reason to raise the pension age is the ever ongoing race for more wealth. What we have now is slavery to the 1%, who take in 50% of the wealth generated! Just getting rid of them, and we would only have to work half, and maintain the same wealth for the rest. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DrakeAlbrecht@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago Eliminate the contribution cap. Instant 20% increase in available pension budget. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 10 points 1 month ago Why is it currently unsustainable? Because 50% or your salary are instantly taken out of your paycheck for other taxes, which you cannot invest in your own savings or towards your own house? Because Germany does not let foreigners in to work and contribute to the retirement fund, because foreigners are very scary? Because taxing the rich and preventing tax fraud would instantly increase the budget by a few billion euros that could be given to the retirement fund? Because rents and home ownership are unaffordable because a lot of homes are in the hands of investment firms and rich people who try to get the most money out of renting, leading to raising costs that eats more than 50% of the renters remaining income each month? All of the above? permalink fedilink source parent
[+] tal@lemmy.today -17 points 1 month ago (3 children) It's better than driving the state budget into the ground, though I still think that it'd be better to get the birth rate up to a sustainable level. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Kaerkob@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago How are you going to convince people to have babies while continuously siphoning off more and more resources from the average person? permalink fedilink source parent [–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 8 points 1 month ago* Having children means finding a large enough and affordable house, which is a nightmare in most cities with a lot of competition. Then you have to pay for childcare, extra food, extra utilities and other expenses. This would ruin a lot of young people who don't earn a lot or already struggle with money, and don't have rich parents to back them up. permalink fedilink source parent [–] baines@lemmy.cafe 2 points 1 month ago if we stopped cutting fucking taxes you derps permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Kaerkob@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago How are you going to convince people to have babies while continuously siphoning off more and more resources from the average person? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 8 points 1 month ago* Having children means finding a large enough and affordable house, which is a nightmare in most cities with a lot of competition. Then you have to pay for childcare, extra food, extra utilities and other expenses. This would ruin a lot of young people who don't earn a lot or already struggle with money, and don't have rich parents to back them up. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] baines@lemmy.cafe 2 points 1 month ago if we stopped cutting fucking taxes you derps permalink fedilink source parent