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[–] 237 points 2 months ago (5 children)

the consensus seems to be that adding instructions to code that sabotage other people’s work goes too far

Luckily, the LLM coding isnt people's work

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  • [–] 118 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    the consensus seems to be that adding instructions to code that sabotage other people’s work goes too far

    I mean, my thought would be "Don't fucking run code that you don't understand".

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  • [–] 44 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    If we all followed that rule, we'd be using nothing more complex than an 8080.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    True, but I would think developers should at least be following it with the code they're actually working on.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    It's an imported library, since when are devs expected to be inspecting the source code of every library they import?

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Well, I think it's legit to use software without understanding the code or use hardware without understanding the specifics of the logical mechanisms of the silicon. But when you're writing software, you really should know what's in your own code. Anything else is bad form in my opinion.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It's an imported library, since when are devs expected to be inspecting the source code of every library they import?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    I don't like to use libraries I don't understand. Probably part why I'm not a professional developer, but it's the principle of the thing - don't put out code you can't vouch for.

    I mean, yes, it's way easier to just use the library, trust it works; but by that logic, it's also way easier to just let an llm code for you.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Probably part why I'm not a professional developer, but it's the principle of the thing

    There's no 'principle' here, that's something that simply would not be possible in any sort of large project. To suggest all professional software developers read every line of every library before using it is ridiculously unworkable.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    ...but do yoz "understand libraries" by reading every line of their code, or by reading the documentation? And only in the parts you're actually interested in?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Yeah, a general understanding is enough. But I think yeah, actually skim over the code, at least get a basic idea about how the internal methods work. Depending on what you're using the library for, it could be prudent to know more about how data structures are handled.

    Honestly, you'll probably learn something in the process.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    Libraries can be audited. LLM generated code cannot.

    Edit: to clarify, it is impossible to audit all LLM generated code across a number of projects, that would replace a single library. It simply won’t happen, because there will always be a non trivial number of users who will copy and paste code without inspecting it. In contrast, widely used open source libraries may be audited by a small subset of their users, and the rest would benefit from that.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Yes it can, its literally still code.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I know it’s code. You are missing the point.

    Any library with a critical user mass is auditable, because a fraction of those users would take the time to do so, whereas all LLM generated variations of the same library cannot and will never be auditable.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    That's literally not what you said, you said "LLM code can not be auditable" which is demonstrably wrong.

    Go ahead and move the goal posts though.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    You missed the context. I don’t blame you.

    Tell me how in hell are you going to audit every single variation of code generated by a LLM, that's equivalent to a whole library. I'll wait.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago

    The code YOU run. If your code runs other code, that doesn't fall under this.

    "Don't ride a car unless you know how driving a car works" doesn't mean you need to understand the chemical composition of the metal in the motor parts

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  • [–] 41 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    It's the stolen work of other people.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Like all of human knowledge, I swear you antillm people are out of your mind.

    Here we have a way to bring coding and creation to the masses at a much lower bar and most of the LLM projects I see are MIT licensed, it's literally a revolution for open source but half of you are pearl clutching and acting like god damn Microsoft.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You are missing the most important questions here: who can afford it, and who owns it.

    It’s easy to be pro LLM when $20 a month is not a big deal.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Self host an open model, but yeah 20 a month is not that expensive for what you can do with it.

    But that's not what anyone in this thread is saying, they're saying LLM code bad and stealing so let's poison open source projects. Also sharing code is bad now, when I'm sure many of these people would claim they like open source code.

    Again, I think knowledge and code should be free for all to use so that we all benefit from it.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I figured you wouldn’t be able to look past your own personal experience. I’m sorry to say that most people outside your bubble cannot afford either the subscription nor the hardware to run usable LLMs locally.

    “Sharing code is bad now” because a handful of companies scraped it and not only they haven’t given anything back, they are reselling it in different shapes, and telling people that now all that data is proprietary. So, yes, stolen is an apt word for it.

    Anyway, all this talk about “democratizing” knowledge is bullshit. Libraries democratized knowledge. The internet democratized knowledge. Anyone can learn how to code if they put the time and read a book and practice.

    But delegated thinking is the opposite of acquiring knowledge, so what the hell are you people yapping about.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    You don't have to delegate thinking, I'm sure many people will but it's absolutely not a requirement for using LLMs as the intended tool they are.

    On the topic of price, I'm sure people were saying the same things about books (oh must be nice you can afford books), then the same about computers and the internet. They eventually became more affordable.

    Not even going to touch the "I couldn't understand economic heardship" aspect.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You are betting on massive corporations having a change of heart and putting all their resources at the disposition of the public, for essentially free. Otherwise, AI will never be affordable in the sense that everyone could have free access to models that matter.

    And I know that you said that self hosting is a possibility. But let’s be real here: public weight models are available because they pose no risk to the bottom line of the companies training them. There are zero competitive models trained by a non profit. But even if that wasn’t true, the current DRAM shortage is proof that these companies will never allow anyone to match them. Same goes for electricity and water.

    Honestly, after all these years of witnessing big tech shitting all over us, I cannot understand where all these hopes come from. Would be endearing if it wasn’t so reckless.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    I'm just showing that as technology progresses and scales it generally becomes cheaper and peoples access increases, again were literally on the internet now and have phones in our pockets that can do it, whereas 40 years ago PCs were much more expensive and internet was slow as hell.

    We shouldn't trust big tech, I'm on Lemmy so that should be a bit of a given lol.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I’m just showing that as technology progresses and scales it generally becomes cheaper and peoples access increases, again were literally on the internet now and have phones in our pockets that can do it, whereas 40 years ago PCs were much more expensive and internet was slow as hell.

    Even if LLMs were free to download and use, who is going to subsidize training and fine tuning, when it takes hundreds of millions of dollars? Also, LLMs are software, not hardware. If there's anything that we know about software is that it doesn't become faster with time, quite the opposite.

    The thing I don't understand is that people believe the BS when all this is out there in the clear. Massive corporations open source models that pose no risk to their bottom line, then they spend millions of dollars to market their newest and latest, rinse and repeat, all fuelled by debt. Thus, self hosting will never catch up, and when the money dries up, there will be zero incentive to make more advanced models more affordable. In fact, since most of the time model improvements scale following training and hardware expenditure, they will become more expensive.

    We shouldn’t trust big tech, I’m on Lemmy so that should be a bit of a given lol.

    Is it though?

    Like here you are, telling me that an example of "technology progress" is that "were literally on the internet now and have phones in our pockets that can do it, whereas 40 years ago PCs were much more expensive and internet was slow as hell", when the phone market is effectively controlled by two companies, Apple and Google. Now imagine the same landscape with LLMs.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I think the reality is open source and normal people are who continuously push progress forward, how much of the internet scaffolding is literally on the backs of open source projects?

    A shit load.

    LLMs are no different, and I can't agree with you that open source models are not a threat to the big players.

    I'm not sure why you're downplaying what I'm saying about extending access and lowering prices, yes of course corporations don't do it out of the goodness of their capitalist hearts, but history shows that it does in fact reduce in cost over time, which was your initial point. "Oh must be nice for you that you can afford $20 a month and have your own homelab to self host models."

    I grew up lower middle class, my home was repossesed by the bank during the housing crisis and my parents divorced.

    I moved out at 18 and joined the workforce and have managed to get a middle-class wage via my efforts and a bit of luck. I hate my job and the morons in charge but the job market is shit.

    I love open source software and the ideas beyond knowledge and work should be shared with others so we can all benefit (which is unfortunately not how this capitalist system works) and yet we have Linux, we have an amazing amount of open source projects that people do simply because they want to. Those are the people we should support and the ones who freely train and fine tune open source models.

    To your point about "software doesn't become faster with time" mother fucker I remember windows 95, you're delusional if you don't think we've come an insane amount. I remember webpages taking minutes to load, interlacing vs non to help with image loading.

    In the realm of LLMs, the software itself on the open source side has improved leaps and bounds in just the past 6 months on my same hardware.

    I understand your negativity, it's hard not to fall into it when the world is how it is right now and things feel like (and are) getting worse in most ways.

    Phones require specialized hardware and designing, to run and produce, LLMs only require normal consumer grade hardware and the desire to learn how to make it work. Will it ever be mainstream? Based on Linux vs Windows/Mac, probably not, but that doesn't mean it's pointless or impossible.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    LLMs are no different, and I can’t agree with you that open source models are not a threat to the big players.

    This is just plain wrong. Again, there are zero open weight models that haven't been developed by private companies. These companies, at the same time, offer superior closed source models because that's their whole business model.

    ... we have an amazing amount of open source projects that people do simply because they want to. Those are the people we should support and the ones who freely train and fine tune open source models.

    They are not.

    There might be some people fine tuning models, but I can confidently assure you that there isn't a single non profit entity out there that is spending tens of thousands of dollars in compute alone, just to give their model away for free. And that doesn't even begin to account for data collection.

    To your point about “software doesn’t become faster with time” mother fucker I remember windows 95, you’re delusional if you don’t think we’ve come an insane amount. I remember webpages taking minutes to load, interlacing vs non to help with image loading.

    What are you even talking about. Websites in the 90s took longer to load because connections back then ran at 56Kbps tops, or ~5KBs, with latencies in the order of 500 to 1000 ms, when the average website would be like 10KB. Nowadays, an online newspaper weights 5 to 20 MB with average bandwidths of hundreds of megabits per second, with latencies of 50-100ms. Web development and its traversals are in such a particularly shitty state, browsing the modern Internet on less than 4GB of RAM is borderline impossible. In other words, software has become slower, and hardware is doing the heavy lifting now. And I can say this because I work in the field.

    Phones require specialized hardware and designing, to run and produce, LLMs only require normal consumer grade hardware and the desire to learn how to make it work.

    This is such a massive mischaracterization.

    First of all, it's easier to put a phone together with off the self parts, than it is to build a meaningfully useful LLM even with $50,000 worth of hardware at one's disposal. Second, running a LLM was never the issue. Being able to produce and run a meaningfully useful LLM that has no strings attached to private interests is.

    Honestly, I think you are out of your depth. Being a hobbyist is fine, but holy crap please inform yourself. None of this shit is easy or free or even cheap to build and run, and every foundation model is controlled by private interests.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    "self host an open model". My dude, you need pretty beefy hardware to run a slow and shit model that won't even compare to the 0.33x models you get with a copilot subscription.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I think that's the problem though, isn't it. It is other people's work, condensed down into what could semi-accurately be called a statistics based random word generator. If LLMs were good at it or had people checking behind then that were good we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

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