▲ 507 ▼ Battery costs have declined by 99% in the last three decades, making electrified transport a reality (ourworldindata.org) submitted 4 months ago by Beep@lemmus.org to c/technology@lemmy.world 91 comments fedilink hide all child comments Batteries have become much cheaper, making energy storage far more affordable.
[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 76 points 4 months ago (7 children) And yet, EV prices stubbornly high in North America. permalink fedilink source hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 43 points 4 months ago (2 children) North America has little competition because of the tariffs on everything not made in USA. AFAIK Canada is getting out of that shadow. I read an article about a month ago, how Canadian imports were routed through USA, and that it stifled EV adoption in Canada. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 16 points 4 months ago (2 children) EV adoption was stifled by MAGA Premieres killing incentives and ripping out public chargers, while giving money to Detroit to keep building shitty trucks and muscle cars. Meanwhile, to sell EVs in Europe, XPing is getting them made in Austria using Magna, a Canadian company. Why didn't Carney/Ford insist on this in Ontario? BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. And BYD is hurting, they just laid off 100,000 worldwide. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. Wow interesting I didn't know that, I've heard that China has too many car makers, and some of them would have to go. So this is probably just the beginning of an adjustment for Chinese makers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 3 points 4 months ago Are they hurting? They still made a massive amount of profit, it's just that their lead is shrinking. They're still the biggest EV manufacturer by far, though Geely could catch up in a few years. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pennomi@lemmy.world -9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ellen.kimble@piefed.social 11 points 4 months ago Oil dependency is a national security issue for a lot of countries, tariffs on EVs have really backfired here while also increasing climate change permalink fedilink source parent [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 7 points 4 months ago Nope. Tariffs reduce competition and you end up with a shitty local option that just costs more and sales die anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] bluGill@fedia.io 2 points 4 months ago The US manufactures more than ever. There are a lot less people in manufacturing than 70 years ago, but we make just as much. I know of one factory that went from 2000 employees in 1950 to 200 today - they make more product than in 1950 despite that. Automation has made a big change in the US. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world -2 points 4 months ago (2 children) This is actually one of the very few places that US tariffs make sense. Not really if you want fair competition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) It's not fair competition if labor standards are far lower in the country being imported from. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago Absolutely correct, we don't want a competition based on social dumping or highest subsidies. That's why you make tariffs to compensate for that like the EU does, but EU has higher standards than USA, and is hit by tariffs in USA anyway, and although China has state subsidies, the 150% tariff doesn't make the competition fair, it simply excludes any car made in China from being sold in USA. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pennomi@lemmy.world -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] tburkhol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago Because US businesses will only compete and innovate if you force them. Leave them safe behind ramparts of protective trade policies, and they'll keep coasting on 1990s technology, as the country as a whole slowly becomes a backwater. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) No the nation doesn't, it just degrades into further noncompetitiveness, and increased consumer prices. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* Does the nation benefit when there’s no actual benefits like health care for the citizens? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 4 months ago* (2 children) A la corporate profits. There is a reason why the United States government blocks the sale of Chinese EVs. It would destroy the American car sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago It should be destroyed permalink fedilink source parent [+] njordomir@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 5 points 4 months ago If only prices were related to costs ... 😄 permalink fedilink source parent [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) There are plenty of EVs below the median price Americans are paying for new cars ~$50k. People aren't buying EVs because they don't like them / the dealerships aren't pushing them, not the price as they're willing to shell out even more for a top of the line pickup. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) There isn’t an EV for sale in America I want. Almost all are SUVs and the ones that aren’t still have iPads instead of dashboards and data tracking. There is one that I want in Europe but I can’t have it because I’m a free American. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] njordomir@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 child) People will literally take any excuse not to pay attention while driving. All this iPad on wheels stuff has gone too far. I was driving a newer car recently, in a foreign country, on unfamiliar roads, and had to figure out how to use the defrost VIA THE FUCKING TOUCHSCREEN while driving. A moment longer an I would have been driving with my head out the window trying to find a space to pull over. Give me a spedo, tachometer, and some knobs for the air and I'll be set. What beats the good old three knob (direction, fan speed, temp) combo? It's practically perfect. All these distractions should be banned. If there is a radio, steering wheel controls should be mandatory and they should test them by putting average folks in the driver seat and asking them to perform basic functions. If it's not intuitive, if it's not distracting, it shouldn't get manufactured. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 4 months ago No, you don't need to pay attention now because of Tesla autopilot, it'll drive for you /s permalink fedilink source parent [–] doingthestuff@lemy.lol 3 points 4 months ago Also, have you bought 9volt batteries recently? Batteries are NOT cheaper in the real world in any use case in my experience. permalink fedilink source parent [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (1 child) I of course looked into used EV but...there's nothing to buy used. You can only get shit with less than 80kW batteries for under $15k in Canada. Think 2006 - 2015 models with high mileage so even less range. I need something that can go 60 kilometers when it's -40'C outside. Looks like I need to eat the gas prices for another 5 years or so waiting for bigger used battery capacity to trickle down. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (2 children) What size of car are you looking at? Chevy Bolt has a 60kWh and will go over 200km in the winter and closer to 400km in the summer. Lots of them around 15k CAD. Price has been creepying up in the last few weeks. I need to grab one myself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child) I can't be picky about make/model at all. Here's the options as of posting for my entire province: https://www.kijiji.ca/b-cars-trucks/alberta/electric/c174l9003a166?for-sale-by=ownr&price=0__15000&view=list These seem too small of a battery and worn so range anxiety is what I'm worried about. Perhaps foolishly you tell me lol. I'm much less willing to deal with scum car lot dealers if I can help it, but these guys who are a 4 hour drive one way away from me are another option: https://www.goelectricyyc.com/used/priceF/10000/priceT/20000 They do have Bolts right now but not affordable/too new for me. I'll keep an eye out. Keep in mind battery degradation and -30% range in winter here. Thx for helping tho permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) Almost all Bolts should have newish batteries or a stupid long warranty on the battery. Degradation is not really a thing on thermally managed batteries, IE only as issue on the Nissan Leaf and the eGolf to lesser extend. Lots of Bolts in Quebec if you are willing to have one shipped. ($1000-2000). I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* I've never considered shipping a car or how to get that done. I'll look into it but if you have any advice about that please do share. I just have to factor in shipping, OOP inspection, and getting a proper charger installed. I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. Yeahhh I chose home reno instead lol. Still maybe for the best idk CoL skyrockets again. permalink fedilink source parent [–] innermachine@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago Ouf my subaru + jeep + dual sport and cruiser combined cost less than the cheapest POS GM ev used i need AWD + snow tires to make it up the mountain passes here in the winter, and when it's more than free ing out I take the bike every day which gets 60+ mpg. I can't wait for batteries to get lighter and EV bikes to become more popular, I would love to commute to work every day on an electric motorcycle. I have an old naked street bike I blew the transmission out of at 86k miles, I keep thinking about gutting the gas tank and pulling the drivetrain and electrifying it but alas time and money do not yet permit... permalink fedilink source parent [–] weimaraner_of_doom@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago And the options are still not great. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 43 points 4 months ago (2 children) North America has little competition because of the tariffs on everything not made in USA. AFAIK Canada is getting out of that shadow. I read an article about a month ago, how Canadian imports were routed through USA, and that it stifled EV adoption in Canada. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 16 points 4 months ago (2 children) EV adoption was stifled by MAGA Premieres killing incentives and ripping out public chargers, while giving money to Detroit to keep building shitty trucks and muscle cars. Meanwhile, to sell EVs in Europe, XPing is getting them made in Austria using Magna, a Canadian company. Why didn't Carney/Ford insist on this in Ontario? BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. And BYD is hurting, they just laid off 100,000 worldwide. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. Wow interesting I didn't know that, I've heard that China has too many car makers, and some of them would have to go. So this is probably just the beginning of an adjustment for Chinese makers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 3 points 4 months ago Are they hurting? They still made a massive amount of profit, it's just that their lead is shrinking. They're still the biggest EV manufacturer by far, though Geely could catch up in a few years. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pennomi@lemmy.world -9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ellen.kimble@piefed.social 11 points 4 months ago Oil dependency is a national security issue for a lot of countries, tariffs on EVs have really backfired here while also increasing climate change permalink fedilink source parent [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 7 points 4 months ago Nope. Tariffs reduce competition and you end up with a shitty local option that just costs more and sales die anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] bluGill@fedia.io 2 points 4 months ago The US manufactures more than ever. There are a lot less people in manufacturing than 70 years ago, but we make just as much. I know of one factory that went from 2000 employees in 1950 to 200 today - they make more product than in 1950 despite that. Automation has made a big change in the US. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world -2 points 4 months ago (2 children) This is actually one of the very few places that US tariffs make sense. Not really if you want fair competition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) It's not fair competition if labor standards are far lower in the country being imported from. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago Absolutely correct, we don't want a competition based on social dumping or highest subsidies. That's why you make tariffs to compensate for that like the EU does, but EU has higher standards than USA, and is hit by tariffs in USA anyway, and although China has state subsidies, the 150% tariff doesn't make the competition fair, it simply excludes any car made in China from being sold in USA. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pennomi@lemmy.world -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] tburkhol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago Because US businesses will only compete and innovate if you force them. Leave them safe behind ramparts of protective trade policies, and they'll keep coasting on 1990s technology, as the country as a whole slowly becomes a backwater. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) No the nation doesn't, it just degrades into further noncompetitiveness, and increased consumer prices. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* Does the nation benefit when there’s no actual benefits like health care for the citizens? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 16 points 4 months ago (2 children) EV adoption was stifled by MAGA Premieres killing incentives and ripping out public chargers, while giving money to Detroit to keep building shitty trucks and muscle cars. Meanwhile, to sell EVs in Europe, XPing is getting them made in Austria using Magna, a Canadian company. Why didn't Carney/Ford insist on this in Ontario? BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. And BYD is hurting, they just laid off 100,000 worldwide. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. Wow interesting I didn't know that, I've heard that China has too many car makers, and some of them would have to go. So this is probably just the beginning of an adjustment for Chinese makers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 3 points 4 months ago Are they hurting? They still made a massive amount of profit, it's just that their lead is shrinking. They're still the biggest EV manufacturer by far, though Geely could catch up in a few years. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago BYD tried to build buses in Ontario but they were so shit they had to close the plant and pay a bunch of lawsuits. Wow interesting I didn't know that, I've heard that China has too many car makers, and some of them would have to go. So this is probably just the beginning of an adjustment for Chinese makers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 3 points 4 months ago Are they hurting? They still made a massive amount of profit, it's just that their lead is shrinking. They're still the biggest EV manufacturer by far, though Geely could catch up in a few years. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world -9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ellen.kimble@piefed.social 11 points 4 months ago Oil dependency is a national security issue for a lot of countries, tariffs on EVs have really backfired here while also increasing climate change permalink fedilink source parent [–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 7 points 4 months ago Nope. Tariffs reduce competition and you end up with a shitty local option that just costs more and sales die anyway. permalink fedilink source parent [–] bluGill@fedia.io 2 points 4 months ago The US manufactures more than ever. There are a lot less people in manufacturing than 70 years ago, but we make just as much. I know of one factory that went from 2000 employees in 1950 to 200 today - they make more product than in 1950 despite that. Automation has made a big change in the US. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world -2 points 4 months ago (2 children) This is actually one of the very few places that US tariffs make sense. Not really if you want fair competition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) It's not fair competition if labor standards are far lower in the country being imported from. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago Absolutely correct, we don't want a competition based on social dumping or highest subsidies. That's why you make tariffs to compensate for that like the EU does, but EU has higher standards than USA, and is hit by tariffs in USA anyway, and although China has state subsidies, the 150% tariff doesn't make the competition fair, it simply excludes any car made in China from being sold in USA. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pennomi@lemmy.world -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] tburkhol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago Because US businesses will only compete and innovate if you force them. Leave them safe behind ramparts of protective trade policies, and they'll keep coasting on 1990s technology, as the country as a whole slowly becomes a backwater. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) No the nation doesn't, it just degrades into further noncompetitiveness, and increased consumer prices. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* Does the nation benefit when there’s no actual benefits like health care for the citizens? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ellen.kimble@piefed.social 11 points 4 months ago Oil dependency is a national security issue for a lot of countries, tariffs on EVs have really backfired here while also increasing climate change permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 7 points 4 months ago Nope. Tariffs reduce competition and you end up with a shitty local option that just costs more and sales die anyway. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] bluGill@fedia.io 2 points 4 months ago The US manufactures more than ever. There are a lot less people in manufacturing than 70 years ago, but we make just as much. I know of one factory that went from 2000 employees in 1950 to 200 today - they make more product than in 1950 despite that. Automation has made a big change in the US. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world -2 points 4 months ago (2 children) This is actually one of the very few places that US tariffs make sense. Not really if you want fair competition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) It's not fair competition if labor standards are far lower in the country being imported from. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago Absolutely correct, we don't want a competition based on social dumping or highest subsidies. That's why you make tariffs to compensate for that like the EU does, but EU has higher standards than USA, and is hit by tariffs in USA anyway, and although China has state subsidies, the 150% tariff doesn't make the competition fair, it simply excludes any car made in China from being sold in USA. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pennomi@lemmy.world -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] tburkhol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago Because US businesses will only compete and innovate if you force them. Leave them safe behind ramparts of protective trade policies, and they'll keep coasting on 1990s technology, as the country as a whole slowly becomes a backwater. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) No the nation doesn't, it just degrades into further noncompetitiveness, and increased consumer prices. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* Does the nation benefit when there’s no actual benefits like health care for the citizens? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) It's not fair competition if labor standards are far lower in the country being imported from. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago Absolutely correct, we don't want a competition based on social dumping or highest subsidies. That's why you make tariffs to compensate for that like the EU does, but EU has higher standards than USA, and is hit by tariffs in USA anyway, and although China has state subsidies, the 150% tariff doesn't make the competition fair, it simply excludes any car made in China from being sold in USA. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago Absolutely correct, we don't want a competition based on social dumping or highest subsidies. That's why you make tariffs to compensate for that like the EU does, but EU has higher standards than USA, and is hit by tariffs in USA anyway, and although China has state subsidies, the 150% tariff doesn't make the competition fair, it simply excludes any car made in China from being sold in USA. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] tburkhol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago Because US businesses will only compete and innovate if you force them. Leave them safe behind ramparts of protective trade policies, and they'll keep coasting on 1990s technology, as the country as a whole slowly becomes a backwater. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) No the nation doesn't, it just degrades into further noncompetitiveness, and increased consumer prices. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent [–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* Does the nation benefit when there’s no actual benefits like health care for the citizens? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] tburkhol@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago Because US businesses will only compete and innovate if you force them. Leave them safe behind ramparts of protective trade policies, and they'll keep coasting on 1990s technology, as the country as a whole slowly becomes a backwater. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) No the nation doesn't, it just degrades into further noncompetitiveness, and increased consumer prices. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] prodigalsorcerer@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (1 child) Short term tariffs can allow domestic manufacturing to reach the design and scale to be competitive without tariffs. This was, in theory, the idea behind the 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Of course, none of the American auto manufacturers are doing anything with that leeway other than continuing to be terrible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) You are 100% correct that this is the general idea, the problem is that USA actually had a head start with Tesla, (as painful as it is to me to admit.) Now the lack of competition will only result in the loss of the lead USA had until just a few years ago. Of course Nazi Musk and Nazi Trump undermine American exports, and no amount of US tariffs can compensate for that. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* Does the nation benefit when there’s no actual benefits like health care for the citizens? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 4 months ago* (2 children) A la corporate profits. There is a reason why the United States government blocks the sale of Chinese EVs. It would destroy the American car sector. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago It should be destroyed permalink fedilink source parent [+] njordomir@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago It should be destroyed permalink fedilink source parent
[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 5 points 4 months ago If only prices were related to costs ... 😄 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago (1 child) There are plenty of EVs below the median price Americans are paying for new cars ~$50k. People aren't buying EVs because they don't like them / the dealerships aren't pushing them, not the price as they're willing to shell out even more for a top of the line pickup. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) There isn’t an EV for sale in America I want. Almost all are SUVs and the ones that aren’t still have iPads instead of dashboards and data tracking. There is one that I want in Europe but I can’t have it because I’m a free American. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] njordomir@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 child) People will literally take any excuse not to pay attention while driving. All this iPad on wheels stuff has gone too far. I was driving a newer car recently, in a foreign country, on unfamiliar roads, and had to figure out how to use the defrost VIA THE FUCKING TOUCHSCREEN while driving. A moment longer an I would have been driving with my head out the window trying to find a space to pull over. Give me a spedo, tachometer, and some knobs for the air and I'll be set. What beats the good old three knob (direction, fan speed, temp) combo? It's practically perfect. All these distractions should be banned. If there is a radio, steering wheel controls should be mandatory and they should test them by putting average folks in the driver seat and asking them to perform basic functions. If it's not intuitive, if it's not distracting, it shouldn't get manufactured. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 4 months ago No, you don't need to pay attention now because of Tesla autopilot, it'll drive for you /s permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) There isn’t an EV for sale in America I want. Almost all are SUVs and the ones that aren’t still have iPads instead of dashboards and data tracking. There is one that I want in Europe but I can’t have it because I’m a free American. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] njordomir@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 child) People will literally take any excuse not to pay attention while driving. All this iPad on wheels stuff has gone too far. I was driving a newer car recently, in a foreign country, on unfamiliar roads, and had to figure out how to use the defrost VIA THE FUCKING TOUCHSCREEN while driving. A moment longer an I would have been driving with my head out the window trying to find a space to pull over. Give me a spedo, tachometer, and some knobs for the air and I'll be set. What beats the good old three knob (direction, fan speed, temp) combo? It's practically perfect. All these distractions should be banned. If there is a radio, steering wheel controls should be mandatory and they should test them by putting average folks in the driver seat and asking them to perform basic functions. If it's not intuitive, if it's not distracting, it shouldn't get manufactured. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 4 months ago No, you don't need to pay attention now because of Tesla autopilot, it'll drive for you /s permalink fedilink source parent
[–] njordomir@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 child) People will literally take any excuse not to pay attention while driving. All this iPad on wheels stuff has gone too far. I was driving a newer car recently, in a foreign country, on unfamiliar roads, and had to figure out how to use the defrost VIA THE FUCKING TOUCHSCREEN while driving. A moment longer an I would have been driving with my head out the window trying to find a space to pull over. Give me a spedo, tachometer, and some knobs for the air and I'll be set. What beats the good old three knob (direction, fan speed, temp) combo? It's practically perfect. All these distractions should be banned. If there is a radio, steering wheel controls should be mandatory and they should test them by putting average folks in the driver seat and asking them to perform basic functions. If it's not intuitive, if it's not distracting, it shouldn't get manufactured. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 4 months ago No, you don't need to pay attention now because of Tesla autopilot, it'll drive for you /s permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 4 months ago No, you don't need to pay attention now because of Tesla autopilot, it'll drive for you /s permalink fedilink source parent
[–] doingthestuff@lemy.lol 3 points 4 months ago Also, have you bought 9volt batteries recently? Batteries are NOT cheaper in the real world in any use case in my experience. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (1 child) I of course looked into used EV but...there's nothing to buy used. You can only get shit with less than 80kW batteries for under $15k in Canada. Think 2006 - 2015 models with high mileage so even less range. I need something that can go 60 kilometers when it's -40'C outside. Looks like I need to eat the gas prices for another 5 years or so waiting for bigger used battery capacity to trickle down. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (2 children) What size of car are you looking at? Chevy Bolt has a 60kWh and will go over 200km in the winter and closer to 400km in the summer. Lots of them around 15k CAD. Price has been creepying up in the last few weeks. I need to grab one myself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child) I can't be picky about make/model at all. Here's the options as of posting for my entire province: https://www.kijiji.ca/b-cars-trucks/alberta/electric/c174l9003a166?for-sale-by=ownr&price=0__15000&view=list These seem too small of a battery and worn so range anxiety is what I'm worried about. Perhaps foolishly you tell me lol. I'm much less willing to deal with scum car lot dealers if I can help it, but these guys who are a 4 hour drive one way away from me are another option: https://www.goelectricyyc.com/used/priceF/10000/priceT/20000 They do have Bolts right now but not affordable/too new for me. I'll keep an eye out. Keep in mind battery degradation and -30% range in winter here. Thx for helping tho permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) Almost all Bolts should have newish batteries or a stupid long warranty on the battery. Degradation is not really a thing on thermally managed batteries, IE only as issue on the Nissan Leaf and the eGolf to lesser extend. Lots of Bolts in Quebec if you are willing to have one shipped. ($1000-2000). I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* I've never considered shipping a car or how to get that done. I'll look into it but if you have any advice about that please do share. I just have to factor in shipping, OOP inspection, and getting a proper charger installed. I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. Yeahhh I chose home reno instead lol. Still maybe for the best idk CoL skyrockets again. permalink fedilink source parent [–] innermachine@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago Ouf my subaru + jeep + dual sport and cruiser combined cost less than the cheapest POS GM ev used i need AWD + snow tires to make it up the mountain passes here in the winter, and when it's more than free ing out I take the bike every day which gets 60+ mpg. I can't wait for batteries to get lighter and EV bikes to become more popular, I would love to commute to work every day on an electric motorcycle. I have an old naked street bike I blew the transmission out of at 86k miles, I keep thinking about gutting the gas tank and pulling the drivetrain and electrifying it but alas time and money do not yet permit... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 6 points 4 months ago (2 children) What size of car are you looking at? Chevy Bolt has a 60kWh and will go over 200km in the winter and closer to 400km in the summer. Lots of them around 15k CAD. Price has been creepying up in the last few weeks. I need to grab one myself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child) I can't be picky about make/model at all. Here's the options as of posting for my entire province: https://www.kijiji.ca/b-cars-trucks/alberta/electric/c174l9003a166?for-sale-by=ownr&price=0__15000&view=list These seem too small of a battery and worn so range anxiety is what I'm worried about. Perhaps foolishly you tell me lol. I'm much less willing to deal with scum car lot dealers if I can help it, but these guys who are a 4 hour drive one way away from me are another option: https://www.goelectricyyc.com/used/priceF/10000/priceT/20000 They do have Bolts right now but not affordable/too new for me. I'll keep an eye out. Keep in mind battery degradation and -30% range in winter here. Thx for helping tho permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) Almost all Bolts should have newish batteries or a stupid long warranty on the battery. Degradation is not really a thing on thermally managed batteries, IE only as issue on the Nissan Leaf and the eGolf to lesser extend. Lots of Bolts in Quebec if you are willing to have one shipped. ($1000-2000). I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* I've never considered shipping a car or how to get that done. I'll look into it but if you have any advice about that please do share. I just have to factor in shipping, OOP inspection, and getting a proper charger installed. I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. Yeahhh I chose home reno instead lol. Still maybe for the best idk CoL skyrockets again. permalink fedilink source parent [–] innermachine@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago Ouf my subaru + jeep + dual sport and cruiser combined cost less than the cheapest POS GM ev used i need AWD + snow tires to make it up the mountain passes here in the winter, and when it's more than free ing out I take the bike every day which gets 60+ mpg. I can't wait for batteries to get lighter and EV bikes to become more popular, I would love to commute to work every day on an electric motorcycle. I have an old naked street bike I blew the transmission out of at 86k miles, I keep thinking about gutting the gas tank and pulling the drivetrain and electrifying it but alas time and money do not yet permit... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child) I can't be picky about make/model at all. Here's the options as of posting for my entire province: https://www.kijiji.ca/b-cars-trucks/alberta/electric/c174l9003a166?for-sale-by=ownr&price=0__15000&view=list These seem too small of a battery and worn so range anxiety is what I'm worried about. Perhaps foolishly you tell me lol. I'm much less willing to deal with scum car lot dealers if I can help it, but these guys who are a 4 hour drive one way away from me are another option: https://www.goelectricyyc.com/used/priceF/10000/priceT/20000 They do have Bolts right now but not affordable/too new for me. I'll keep an eye out. Keep in mind battery degradation and -30% range in winter here. Thx for helping tho permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) Almost all Bolts should have newish batteries or a stupid long warranty on the battery. Degradation is not really a thing on thermally managed batteries, IE only as issue on the Nissan Leaf and the eGolf to lesser extend. Lots of Bolts in Quebec if you are willing to have one shipped. ($1000-2000). I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* I've never considered shipping a car or how to get that done. I'll look into it but if you have any advice about that please do share. I just have to factor in shipping, OOP inspection, and getting a proper charger installed. I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. Yeahhh I chose home reno instead lol. Still maybe for the best idk CoL skyrockets again. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dorkage@lemmy.ca 4 points 4 months ago (1 child) Almost all Bolts should have newish batteries or a stupid long warranty on the battery. Degradation is not really a thing on thermally managed batteries, IE only as issue on the Nissan Leaf and the eGolf to lesser extend. Lots of Bolts in Quebec if you are willing to have one shipped. ($1000-2000). I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* I've never considered shipping a car or how to get that done. I'll look into it but if you have any advice about that please do share. I just have to factor in shipping, OOP inspection, and getting a proper charger installed. I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. Yeahhh I chose home reno instead lol. Still maybe for the best idk CoL skyrockets again. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago* I've never considered shipping a car or how to get that done. I'll look into it but if you have any advice about that please do share. I just have to factor in shipping, OOP inspection, and getting a proper charger installed. I really regret not getting one a year or two ago when their value was sort of tanked. Yeahhh I chose home reno instead lol. Still maybe for the best idk CoL skyrockets again. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] innermachine@lemmy.world 1 point 4 months ago Ouf my subaru + jeep + dual sport and cruiser combined cost less than the cheapest POS GM ev used i need AWD + snow tires to make it up the mountain passes here in the winter, and when it's more than free ing out I take the bike every day which gets 60+ mpg. I can't wait for batteries to get lighter and EV bikes to become more popular, I would love to commute to work every day on an electric motorcycle. I have an old naked street bike I blew the transmission out of at 86k miles, I keep thinking about gutting the gas tank and pulling the drivetrain and electrifying it but alas time and money do not yet permit... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] weimaraner_of_doom@piefed.social 2 points 4 months ago And the options are still not great. permalink fedilink source parent