▲ 220 ▼ Chinese cars are pouring into Mexico — and the U.S. is worried - Autoblog (www.autoblog.com) submitted 2 years ago by schizoidman@lemmy.ml to c/world@lemmy.world 120 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 94 points 2 years ago (1 child) undermining regional carmakers I think the word they're looking for is in fact "outcompeting." Yutaro-Katori-with-butterfly-meme: Is this capitalism? permalink fedilink source hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 73 points 2 years ago (10 children) Outcompeting by having a nation subsidize the cost. Until local manufacturers go out of business because they can't compete. Then China owns the entire industry she jacks to the price. It's like no one has been paying attention. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 76 points 2 years ago (2 children) It's weird that this has to be explained to Americans - this is how much of Big Tech got to where they are, except they call it "disruption". BTW this shows perfectly that free markets are not a be-all-end-all thing. It's a tool, and if it produces outcomes that you don't like, you can adjust it for better outcomes. The hypocrisy here is not that they pretend to worship the market then cry foul when China enters it on their terms, but that they do adjust it for their benefit all the time, and only pretend to worship it when people ask for their fair share. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] n2burns@lemmy.ca 22 points 2 years ago (1 child) While we've seen this cycle play out quite a few times in Big Tech, I think a lot of people just aren't aware of what it is. I've had friends decry how, "Uber is now basically as expensive as a taxi." I point out how Uber is only recently profitable and see people's minds get blown. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] mlg@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago (4 children) Local manufacturers You mean Ford, GM, and Chrysler who make useless pieces of garbage and also outsource production to Mexico? Who also got bailed out by the federal government for going bankrupt back in 2009? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] shikitohno@lemm.ee 23 points 2 years ago GM, who just announced a $6 billion stock buy back once they knew tariffs would keep them safe from having to compete with Chinese EVs, that GM? This sort of stuff is realistically why I have no sympathy for the major US automotive manufacturers. The only reason I don't just say "Screw them, let Chinese EVs drive them out of business," is because it would put so many people out of work in their plants who have no role in these decisions. Barring some fantasy where the Chinese companies establish US plants and offer equivalent or better union contracts for current employees at GM, Ford and Chrysler, these companies should simply be bound hand and foot in terms and conditions whenever something is done by the government to help them. Like, make those protectionist tariffs conditional on them hitting investment targets in relevant technologies, raising worker pay and benefits, reducing cost to the customer and a ban on stock buybacks for the duration of the tariffs being valid. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) [–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 25 points 2 years ago (2 children) I mean the US is also doing that. It's not a subsidies issue; it's the fact that Chinese companies are using subsidies to actually make things while US companies are just pocketing them. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago I get a craving for corn whenever someone says subsidies. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 6 points 2 years ago (2 children) Is the US? What us car company is doing it to such a degree name countries are blocking their goods? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) Ah, I see. So it's cool when we do it (fossil fuel and ag subsidies, the auto industry bailout in 2008, etc.) but not when they do it. Got it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago (2 children) You're introducing an argument as a way to undermine the viewpoint that's opposite to yours. No one said it's fine "when we do it". That's not the point being discussed. The other bigger issue here is that these new cars are coming from a region that has a horrendous track record for safety and quality. EVs when done right are still a considerable risk with battery fires, but the ones manufactured in China are much worse for quality and safety. In the next few years, as these cars flood markets around the world, it will be a massive issue. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] nom_nom@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago (3 children) They seem safe enough to pass the EU’s safety standards, which are much higher than the US. Also this blanket “quality issues” argument without specific evidence is terrible. If we’re going off of quality in recent history, American manufacturing is down the toilet in terms of quality - just look at Boeing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago (3 children) Lmao this is coming from the same safety organization that approved the Tesla Cybertruck? I'll take my chances with a car that's seen EU approval. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] nekandro@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago Lmao there's a guy who usually posts a long response to these "subsidies" claims bullshit, but I think they got into a pissing match with a mod in the comments and got banned lmao. Jist of it is: China's subsidies are negligible compared to the US, and what they've actually done is created a competitive domestic market with a large number of players. Unless you think Chinese people are all puppets, even if China (as a country) owns the industry it would not prevent internal competition that drives down prices. Moreover, China does not offer per-unit subsidies on export. In fact, Chinese EVs exported to Europe are something like 40% more expensive than domestically for the same model. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Stern@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago The ol' Wal-Marteroo permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 73 points 2 years ago (10 children) Outcompeting by having a nation subsidize the cost. Until local manufacturers go out of business because they can't compete. Then China owns the entire industry she jacks to the price. It's like no one has been paying attention. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 76 points 2 years ago (2 children) It's weird that this has to be explained to Americans - this is how much of Big Tech got to where they are, except they call it "disruption". BTW this shows perfectly that free markets are not a be-all-end-all thing. It's a tool, and if it produces outcomes that you don't like, you can adjust it for better outcomes. The hypocrisy here is not that they pretend to worship the market then cry foul when China enters it on their terms, but that they do adjust it for their benefit all the time, and only pretend to worship it when people ask for their fair share. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] n2burns@lemmy.ca 22 points 2 years ago (1 child) While we've seen this cycle play out quite a few times in Big Tech, I think a lot of people just aren't aware of what it is. I've had friends decry how, "Uber is now basically as expensive as a taxi." I point out how Uber is only recently profitable and see people's minds get blown. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] mlg@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago (4 children) Local manufacturers You mean Ford, GM, and Chrysler who make useless pieces of garbage and also outsource production to Mexico? Who also got bailed out by the federal government for going bankrupt back in 2009? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] shikitohno@lemm.ee 23 points 2 years ago GM, who just announced a $6 billion stock buy back once they knew tariffs would keep them safe from having to compete with Chinese EVs, that GM? This sort of stuff is realistically why I have no sympathy for the major US automotive manufacturers. The only reason I don't just say "Screw them, let Chinese EVs drive them out of business," is because it would put so many people out of work in their plants who have no role in these decisions. Barring some fantasy where the Chinese companies establish US plants and offer equivalent or better union contracts for current employees at GM, Ford and Chrysler, these companies should simply be bound hand and foot in terms and conditions whenever something is done by the government to help them. Like, make those protectionist tariffs conditional on them hitting investment targets in relevant technologies, raising worker pay and benefits, reducing cost to the customer and a ban on stock buybacks for the duration of the tariffs being valid. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) [–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 25 points 2 years ago (2 children) I mean the US is also doing that. It's not a subsidies issue; it's the fact that Chinese companies are using subsidies to actually make things while US companies are just pocketing them. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago I get a craving for corn whenever someone says subsidies. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 6 points 2 years ago (2 children) Is the US? What us car company is doing it to such a degree name countries are blocking their goods? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies) [–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) Ah, I see. So it's cool when we do it (fossil fuel and ag subsidies, the auto industry bailout in 2008, etc.) but not when they do it. Got it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago (2 children) You're introducing an argument as a way to undermine the viewpoint that's opposite to yours. No one said it's fine "when we do it". That's not the point being discussed. The other bigger issue here is that these new cars are coming from a region that has a horrendous track record for safety and quality. EVs when done right are still a considerable risk with battery fires, but the ones manufactured in China are much worse for quality and safety. In the next few years, as these cars flood markets around the world, it will be a massive issue. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] nom_nom@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago (3 children) They seem safe enough to pass the EU’s safety standards, which are much higher than the US. Also this blanket “quality issues” argument without specific evidence is terrible. If we’re going off of quality in recent history, American manufacturing is down the toilet in terms of quality - just look at Boeing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago (3 children) Lmao this is coming from the same safety organization that approved the Tesla Cybertruck? I'll take my chances with a car that's seen EU approval. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] nekandro@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago Lmao there's a guy who usually posts a long response to these "subsidies" claims bullshit, but I think they got into a pissing match with a mod in the comments and got banned lmao. Jist of it is: China's subsidies are negligible compared to the US, and what they've actually done is created a competitive domestic market with a large number of players. Unless you think Chinese people are all puppets, even if China (as a country) owns the industry it would not prevent internal competition that drives down prices. Moreover, China does not offer per-unit subsidies on export. In fact, Chinese EVs exported to Europe are something like 40% more expensive than domestically for the same model. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Stern@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago The ol' Wal-Marteroo permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (4 replies)
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 76 points 2 years ago (2 children) It's weird that this has to be explained to Americans - this is how much of Big Tech got to where they are, except they call it "disruption". BTW this shows perfectly that free markets are not a be-all-end-all thing. It's a tool, and if it produces outcomes that you don't like, you can adjust it for better outcomes. The hypocrisy here is not that they pretend to worship the market then cry foul when China enters it on their terms, but that they do adjust it for their benefit all the time, and only pretend to worship it when people ask for their fair share. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] n2burns@lemmy.ca 22 points 2 years ago (1 child) While we've seen this cycle play out quite a few times in Big Tech, I think a lot of people just aren't aware of what it is. I've had friends decry how, "Uber is now basically as expensive as a taxi." I point out how Uber is only recently profitable and see people's minds get blown. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] n2burns@lemmy.ca 22 points 2 years ago (1 child) While we've seen this cycle play out quite a few times in Big Tech, I think a lot of people just aren't aware of what it is. I've had friends decry how, "Uber is now basically as expensive as a taxi." I point out how Uber is only recently profitable and see people's minds get blown. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] mlg@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago (4 children) Local manufacturers You mean Ford, GM, and Chrysler who make useless pieces of garbage and also outsource production to Mexico? Who also got bailed out by the federal government for going bankrupt back in 2009? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] shikitohno@lemm.ee 23 points 2 years ago GM, who just announced a $6 billion stock buy back once they knew tariffs would keep them safe from having to compete with Chinese EVs, that GM? This sort of stuff is realistically why I have no sympathy for the major US automotive manufacturers. The only reason I don't just say "Screw them, let Chinese EVs drive them out of business," is because it would put so many people out of work in their plants who have no role in these decisions. Barring some fantasy where the Chinese companies establish US plants and offer equivalent or better union contracts for current employees at GM, Ford and Chrysler, these companies should simply be bound hand and foot in terms and conditions whenever something is done by the government to help them. Like, make those protectionist tariffs conditional on them hitting investment targets in relevant technologies, raising worker pay and benefits, reducing cost to the customer and a ban on stock buybacks for the duration of the tariffs being valid. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies)
[–] shikitohno@lemm.ee 23 points 2 years ago GM, who just announced a $6 billion stock buy back once they knew tariffs would keep them safe from having to compete with Chinese EVs, that GM? This sort of stuff is realistically why I have no sympathy for the major US automotive manufacturers. The only reason I don't just say "Screw them, let Chinese EVs drive them out of business," is because it would put so many people out of work in their plants who have no role in these decisions. Barring some fantasy where the Chinese companies establish US plants and offer equivalent or better union contracts for current employees at GM, Ford and Chrysler, these companies should simply be bound hand and foot in terms and conditions whenever something is done by the government to help them. Like, make those protectionist tariffs conditional on them hitting investment targets in relevant technologies, raising worker pay and benefits, reducing cost to the customer and a ban on stock buybacks for the duration of the tariffs being valid. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 25 points 2 years ago (2 children) I mean the US is also doing that. It's not a subsidies issue; it's the fact that Chinese companies are using subsidies to actually make things while US companies are just pocketing them. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago I get a craving for corn whenever someone says subsidies. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Neato@ttrpg.network 6 points 2 years ago (2 children) Is the US? What us car company is doing it to such a degree name countries are blocking their goods? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago I get a craving for corn whenever someone says subsidies. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 6 points 2 years ago (2 children) Is the US? What us car company is doing it to such a degree name countries are blocking their goods? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments load more comments (2 replies)
[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago (2 children) Ah, I see. So it's cool when we do it (fossil fuel and ag subsidies, the auto industry bailout in 2008, etc.) but not when they do it. Got it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago (2 children) You're introducing an argument as a way to undermine the viewpoint that's opposite to yours. No one said it's fine "when we do it". That's not the point being discussed. The other bigger issue here is that these new cars are coming from a region that has a horrendous track record for safety and quality. EVs when done right are still a considerable risk with battery fires, but the ones manufactured in China are much worse for quality and safety. In the next few years, as these cars flood markets around the world, it will be a massive issue. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] nom_nom@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago (3 children) They seem safe enough to pass the EU’s safety standards, which are much higher than the US. Also this blanket “quality issues” argument without specific evidence is terrible. If we’re going off of quality in recent history, American manufacturing is down the toilet in terms of quality - just look at Boeing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago (3 children) Lmao this is coming from the same safety organization that approved the Tesla Cybertruck? I'll take my chances with a car that's seen EU approval. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago (2 children) You're introducing an argument as a way to undermine the viewpoint that's opposite to yours. No one said it's fine "when we do it". That's not the point being discussed. The other bigger issue here is that these new cars are coming from a region that has a horrendous track record for safety and quality. EVs when done right are still a considerable risk with battery fires, but the ones manufactured in China are much worse for quality and safety. In the next few years, as these cars flood markets around the world, it will be a massive issue. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] nom_nom@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago (3 children) They seem safe enough to pass the EU’s safety standards, which are much higher than the US. Also this blanket “quality issues” argument without specific evidence is terrible. If we’re going off of quality in recent history, American manufacturing is down the toilet in terms of quality - just look at Boeing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) [–] naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago (3 children) Lmao this is coming from the same safety organization that approved the Tesla Cybertruck? I'll take my chances with a car that's seen EU approval. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] nom_nom@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago (3 children) They seem safe enough to pass the EU’s safety standards, which are much higher than the US. Also this blanket “quality issues” argument without specific evidence is terrible. If we’re going off of quality in recent history, American manufacturing is down the toilet in terms of quality - just look at Boeing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Daveyborn@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago People wrongly assume all Chinese manufacturing is aliexpress fodder. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 years ago (3 children) Lmao this is coming from the same safety organization that approved the Tesla Cybertruck? I'll take my chances with a car that's seen EU approval. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] nekandro@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago Lmao there's a guy who usually posts a long response to these "subsidies" claims bullshit, but I think they got into a pissing match with a mod in the comments and got banned lmao. Jist of it is: China's subsidies are negligible compared to the US, and what they've actually done is created a competitive domestic market with a large number of players. Unless you think Chinese people are all puppets, even if China (as a country) owns the industry it would not prevent internal competition that drives down prices. Moreover, China does not offer per-unit subsidies on export. In fact, Chinese EVs exported to Europe are something like 40% more expensive than domestically for the same model. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 71 points 2 years ago (29 children) permalink fedilink source hideshow 29 child comments load more comments (29 replies)
[–] Doomsider@lemmy.world 66 points 2 years ago (1 child) Translation: US automakers are worried about Chinese imports servicing a sector they have abandoned. permalink fedilink source hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 53 points 2 years ago* (12 children) then start investing in tech, jobs, and education so the us can compete with inexpensive cars.... *editors note; i'm not a tankie, i just know that china has invested in technology while the us has been bogged down in partisanship (look at solar) permalink fedilink source hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] SuperIce@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (3 children) We would also need the government to pay for half of the cost to build the cars. That's what China is doing and why the cars are so cheap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Sounds good to me. When are we starting? permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (11 replies)
[–] SuperIce@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago (3 children) We would also need the government to pay for half of the cost to build the cars. That's what China is doing and why the cars are so cheap. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Sounds good to me. When are we starting? permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago Sounds good to me. When are we starting? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 18 points 2 years ago (39 children) is it hard to.. ya know... hypothetically obtain one of these cheaper, mexican imported evs? askin for a huh friend permalink fedilink source hideshow 39 child comments load more comments (39 replies)
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