Be it books, movies, documentaries, or even music. I feel like I have people around me whom wish to fight violence with violence, with mentalities like "we should just counter-invade and show them who's boss" or "I'm not afraid to fight for what I believe in", showing a clear intent against an "enemy".

"The enemy" is such a dehumanizing perspective, and only breeds further animosity. I wish for them to see that we all manage to find justifications for our actions, but that doesn't make it worthy of just any sacrifice.

I recently saw the Norwegian movie Max Manus, which is about real events during WW2.

Tap for spoilerHe survives, but with almost none of his friends, and after the war he struggles with alcoholism and nightmares for the rest of his life.

It left me with a feeling of despite "victory", many people paid with more than just their life. And this is the feeling I wish others to feel, just for a bit, and ponder if "doing the right thing" really is the best thing.

No one should want conflict, and I wish to emphasize just how much we really should try and avoid warmongering. I've seen uncensored videos from modern wars, been in the military, had a great grandfather who fought in WW2 (who also struggled with nightmares and PTSD until his natural death), and all of it makes me dread the potential of the horrors that happen to everyone involved in an armed conflict, especially the innocents and the kids...

So, any suggestions for media that conveys this in a way that makes one really reflect?

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[–] 21 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

All quiet on the western front (movie from 2022) feels like your example a bit without the post-war consequences. Grave of the firefly (anime) is on my watch list and is very anti-war from what I understand. Catch 22 maybe. The Wars by Timothy Findley felt very anti-war but is a tough read. The cruel sea was a good read. Vinland sagas first season is very good, lots of action but some really hard hitting scenes for an anime.

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    just make sure you’re in the right mindset when you watch Grave of the Fireflies – great movie BUT it is an emotional gut-punch

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah I'm kinda terrified to watch that one, not gonna lie. I get an emotional overreaction just looking at the cover...

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Absolutely worth it though. Maybe watch it together with somebody so you can do some adhoc mutual therapy lol.

    I love Ghibli movies so much because they tell stories very well, they are never black and white, and they always make me feel and ponder things. (And all that with beautiful art and music).

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  • [–] 17 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    Das Boot, it is the classic movie about German Uboats from the perspective of the Uboat crew.

    It does not glorify, it does not condemn, but the one thing that stays with you is the feeling of futility.

    They did all the terrible and heroic things, cheered at hitting convoys, let allied seamen drown because of their orders, escaped again and again, showed fanatism and self-reflection, panic and comradeship, and in the end, when they come back to their home base, it just doesn't matter.

    spoilerAs they arrive, half-afloat, battered, relieved and enthusiastic about being home, while a marching band plays in the background, they get hit with an air raid. Bombs fall, all die, only the narrator (war reporter) survives to tell the tale. All for nothing. All of it completely futile.

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Vinland Saga

    "I have no enemies." It's an anime with two seasons so far. The manga is getting close to complete. Takes place around 1000 ad with the wars between the Vikings and the English. Basically the first season is about revenge while the second pivots hard to redemption. It's ultimately a story about pacifism.

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    [–] 15 points 7 months ago

    Anything written by Kurt Vonnegut

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    pretty much every war movie

    the classics have got Saving Private Ryan, Nolan's got Dunkirk, Best Cinematography's got 1917, Ghibli's got Grave of the Fireflies (released same day as Totoro even)...

    for anti-war that's not depressing, there's also AFAIK the over-the-top Helldivers

    for things that feel "clean" instead of bloody there's the elegant video game Nier: Automata

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    Pretty much every war movie glorifies war haha. Saving Private Ryan, Dunkirk, and 1917 are famous because of their awesome looking action scenes. All those films glorify war and convey a sense of heroism, urgency, and righteousness for people involved in a war. If the director's wanted to make a film that didn't glorify war, they would've focused on the shitty parts of war instead of showing the audience all the cool heroic things soldiers get up to.

    Grave of the Fireflies does not glorify war. Thin Red Line is maybe the only movie about soldiers that doesn't make war seem cool.

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago (3 children)
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    [–] 14 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    An amazing movie is come and see. One of the best movies I have ever seen (no pun intended).

    Edit: the comments says it all, just the type of thing you asked (or what I understood you asked).

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  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago

    Spec Ops: The Line I heard is a game like that

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago

    Generation Kill is a very watchable look at a recon unit in the lead up to the 2nd (iirc) iraq war. It's by the guy who did The Wire. Excellent dialogue, plotting and acting.

    It uses a soldier's eye perspective to examine the systemic issues in the military - casual racism, war crimes, adult diapers and the constant incompetence of officers all come up.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago

    The Unknown Soldier is quite well made and high budget war movie by Finnish standards and it does nothing to glorify war.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Saving Private Ryan.

    If the first 15 minutes don't turn you into an antiwar activist, I don't know what will.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    That movie is textbook glorifying war 😭 The first 15 minutes especially!! It's literally called Saving Private Ryan as in here's a movie about heroic saviors in a situation that is only possible because of war. Majority of the audience doesn't leave a film like that thinking "war is so awful" but instead thinking "wow the scene where they stormed normandy was awesome it was filmed in such a cool way omg i wish i was also able to be as brave and heroic as those men."

    I think that movie is great, but it is impossible to make any media about war, that directly shows the war, without coming across as pro-war.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Civil War definitely wasn't fun at all

    Edit: I mean it was good don't get me wrong, but it absolutely didn't glorify war

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    I still feel really curious about getting around to that one.

    The most unsettling thing is working at my local library, and that movie's been out for a long time now, and I see it circulating CONSTANTLY.

    That speaks volumes about what's on people's minds, I think...

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I think most even slightly accurate war movies don’t really glorify the war bit. Two recommendations.

    There is a film A24 distributed last year called Warfare that follows a very accurate telling of a single operation of a platoon in Ramadi. It is pretty grim, but really gives a sense of just how brutal it can be for a small group. A lot of movies show slaughter at scale, like beaches of Normandy. That is always fascinating and dark too, but it slightly diminishes the struggle of the individuals. This does not.

    Another recommendation is Tora! Tora! Tora!; an absolute classic from 1970. This movie shows you many of the mistakes and oversights, big and small that led to the Pearl Harbor attack being so crippling. Aside from huge ship and air guns there aren’t many guns. I think many people would enjoy it at the moment because it shows the USA on the rout.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    The Anime Grave of the Fireflies (AniDB) is a heart-wrenching telling of the impact and consequences of war.

    Come and See (TMDB), a 1985 soviet anti-war film. I haven't watched it yet, but I've seen it mentioned multiple times as significant or exceptional, heart-wrenching. (Looks like other comments mention it as well, as expected. :P)

    I'm a bit disappointed I can't recall much else right now, and of different kinds than just the misery of war. Two other anime pop into my head, but the aspects asked for aren't a major part of them.

    There are many videos and reports of Ukraine military defense operations that can show what combat realistically looks like. Even for the righteous, it's a harsh situation. Moral superiority does not help much when you're sitting in trenches, in the situational, practical aspects at least.

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    [–] 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    Empire of the Sun is a film about civilians caught in a war zone.

    The Things They Carried, by Tim O'Brien, is a collection of short stories about the Vietnam War. It shows the exhilaration, the terror, the cruelty and hardship of living through a war. It definitely doesn't glorify conflict.

    My War Gone By, I Miss It So, by Anthony Loyd, is a firsthand account of the Bosnian conflict of the 90s. It is ugly and brutal, and the author tries to give an honest presentation of his own state of mind at the time.

    Black Hawk Down (the book, not the movie), by Mark Bowden, is a fairly thorough account of the incident in Mogadishu in 1993. Bowden did a lot of research and describes the political background that led to the UN and US presence in Somalia, and all of the mistakes that led up to the helicopter being shot down and what happened after. He interviewed many of the military personnel who were actually involved and recounts the events from several different perspectives. And as the Wikipedia article says:

    Bowden simultaneously manages to capture the siege mentality felt by both civilians and the US soldiers, as well as the broad sentiment among many residents that the Rangers were to blame for the majority of the battle casualties.

    This is a very realistic presentation of what combat is like, framed inside the perspective of the overall military operation. Bowden doesn't shy away from describing the mistakes in decision-making, but also does a fair job of describing how lack of information or bad information leads to bad decisions in the moment which result in people dying for no good reason. He definitely doesn't glorify the conflict. My overall impression after reading it was "I hope I never have to be involved in anything like that".

    And finally, Alice's Restaurant, by Arlo Guthrie, is a song about the draft.

    if you wanna end war'n'stuff ya gotta sing loud

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    [–] 9 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Well, I'll recommend Arcane as a show where nearly everyone wants war and pushes for war, and then regrets it and either changes their mind or dies.

    However, I do think war has its place and is sometimes necessary. If we hadn't gone to war with the Nazis, the world would be a much worse place. I believe we should directly intervene in the Russian invasion of Ukraine and in the Israeli invasion of Palestine, on the side of the defending forces, while limiting our actions to purely military targets. I also think World War 3 has become nearly inevitable, and that it will be triggered by the invasion of Venezuela and Greenland, and that we should be prepared to support the defending forces so as to prevent the rampant spread of fascism.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I've already watched Arcane, and it indeed is a great show in how it displays each death as an immensely impactful event for each close character, making them feel anger and desperation, ultimately leading to regretful emotional decisions.

    In regards to war being necessary, I partly agree: It only becomes necessary because one side finds it a worthy method to gain what they seek. The Nazi party decided that taking by force is a viable option, and they got support for it. This is what I hope to prevent in the first place. One example is the (initial) support Kremlin had to intervene in Ukraine with a military force. Another example is Trump taking Maduro; also a clear act of war. I'm honestly impressed by the world's reluctance to give military consequences, though I fear it's for the wrong reasons...

    The people of the aggressor's side are the ones that would benefit the most from un-glorifying of conflict, and I will surely recommend people I know some of the great suggestions in this post.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    Defcon: Everybody Dies

    That game has actually been studied by scientists, because it changes people’s attitudes towards nuclear weapons.

    The game literally is about using nuclear weapons to win.

    How does it look? It isn’t overly grotesque. There are no melting faces, no devastated landscapes. Nothing. It’s just a minimalist map of the world.

    You might hear that and think that it’s a pro-war game. But it actually has the opposite effect on players.

    How can it be? Simple. The game is accurate in how swiftly it all ends if there is a nuclear war. And by playing it, that truth is engraved into players’ intuitions.

    https://www.academia.edu/6697989/Education_from_inside_the_bunker_Examining_the_effect_of_Defcon_a_nuclear_warfare_simulation_game_on_nuclear_attitudes_and_critical_reflection

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 7 months ago

    Interesting suggestion! I've heard about this game, and my initial thoughts were exactly as you described, so maybe I should try it out indeed.

    Also thanks for linking a study!

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago

    Some episodes of Star Trek do this well. Off the top of my head, "The Drumhead" is a great example of rejecting fearmongering and witch hunting "The Enemy".

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago

    Band of Brothers fits this very well, It is very evenhanded all the way through and particularly at the end where the final Heartfelt speech is made by a German officer to his men, but it applies to all of the American characters that you have been following through this series, the feeling of Brotherhood was the same for all men involved

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago
    [–] 6 points 7 months ago*

    To add some music here,

    Roger Waters: The Wall.

    His version is my personal preference over the original Pink Floyd version; it has some more songs, better audio quality, and IMO hits a little harder. Read the lyrics for full understanding. Watch a recording of the concert to be blown away.

    "Di-di-di-did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath the clear blue sky?"

    Also seconding someone else's recommendation of Vinland Saga, really goes through the whole spectrum from seeking revenge to being horrified by war.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago

    The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On.

    :::spoiler Click for summary/spoilers

    Kenzō Okuzaki was conscripted to fight in WWII and the experience radicalized him against the Japanese government. He deliberately attempted to get himself shot by Allied forces but was captured instead. After the war, as the years passed, he became worried that the younger generation was growing up unaware of the horrors of war and the atrocities that their government had committed, and so would be prone to repeating the mistakes of the past. He became desperate to do something about it.

    Okuzaki brazenly defied norms about politeness and drove around in a car covered in slogans, shouting out of loudspeaker that the emperor was a war criminal. The film focuses on his attempts to track down elderly veterans and get them to record testimonies in front of a camera, specifically investigating allegations that Japanese soldiers resorted to cannibalism in New Guinea. Of course, people generally aren't particularly thrilled about a stranger showing up to relitigate old war crimes and interrogate grandpa about The Things We Don't Talk About. There are times when Okuzaki even gets involved in fistfights with people over it.

    After collecting testimony from a bunch of people, he comes to the conclusion that a colonel was responsible for the war crimes, and he decided to kill him over it. However, when he arrived at his house, he only found his son, who he shot and injured instead.

    Okuzaki is a complicated and problematic figure but in some ways that makes the film all the more unsettling and challenging. Shooting someone for just for being related to a war criminal is pretty indefensible, but Okuzaki was broken by the war he wanted to avoid repeating (the decade in solitary confinement probably didn't help either). He wanted to remind people of the horrors of war, but it's because of what the war did to him that he had become maladjusted and prone to violence (although it's worth noting that a lot of his protests had been nonviolent, and had gotten him jail time). I think there's a natural inclination to look at things like this in the abstract, to ask, "how for is it justifiable to go in pursuit of a good cause?" but the film pushes us to consider the psychological, human aspect of this traumatized killer trying desperately to create a world where people like himself would not be created.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Appreciate this post. I'd welcome any suggestion to help deglorify guns to a kid, too

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    NSFW, but you can youtube a number of firearms accidents. Blown barrels peeled like bananas, exploded chambers etc...

    Guns are fascinating to some boys, until they see the accidents of simple range use. Blinded. Dead. Near misses of dead. Lost hands and faces. Gun safety vids serve as a warning to not fuck around.

    Careful with age appropriate. Seriously nsfw nsfl.

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    [–] 6 points 6 months ago

    Godzilla Minus One does a great job at showing post WW2 Japan, and the effect the war had on the Japanese people.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    Books: Forever War the homophobia is strange though. I'm not gay so I won't say it isn't offensive, but it is strange.

    The ender's saga. Starts off questioning "what is an enemy", ends questioning "what is life". Author is a cunt though, acquire through other means than purchase (such as borrowing) if you can. Strange someone so bigoted can write a series so... not bigoted.

    Bill the galactic hero. "It's always bowb your buddy week". A bit immature, maybe the jokes are dated now.

    Films: Jarhead

    Platoon

    Full metal jacket

    No write ups, I think the films are well enough known.

    My own thoughts on war are defensive wars are to be supported. Ukraine, Palestine, Venezuela, all to be defended from their aggressors. Rogue states are to be handled in other ways up until war. Which, to criticise my own position, is to say it was fine while Hitler was only killing Germans.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    For some incredibly good sci-fi: Some desperate glory by Emily Tess

    Tap for spoilerAbout a teenager, groomed from birth to be a true-believing elite soldier, who is starting to question and escape a fascist, rapey, ultra-militarized hellhole while looking fo her lost brother. Her mental journey is superbly written. Also includes gay awakenings.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    2000 meters to Andriivka

    It follows the Ukrainian push through a narrow strip of woodland to a town that has been destroyed by the war.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 child)

    MAS*H the 1970 Robert Altman film is a dark comedy following battlefield surgeons in the Korean war. Based off a semiautobiographical book with a similar premise.

    Essentially the surgeons try to keep themselves sane in an insane environment by playing practical jokes and generally making light of the darkest situation imaginable.

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    [–] 3 points 7 months ago*

    There are some... of course, but for some reason these are first I recalled at this moment - some bands a military colleague had been listening back in the days, on fields.

    The band name is Lyube (Любэ). There's a YouTube channel, and some of the titles I still recall he listened to:
    - А зори здесь тихие-тихие - Любэ;
    - Там за туманами - Любэ;
    - Комбат- Любэ;

    Another song another colleague had been listening to was Чей чай горячей by Чайф.

    And though I am not very fluent in Russian (the sense of lyrics in these are quite hard to comprehend, too), rare but tears of these two strong men made me believe these were incredibly significant for them, and represented an unbearable sorrow of any war...

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Letters from iwo jima. I think of this film time to time

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    [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    The Lord of the Rings is (among many other things) a book about how the common man deals with the trauma of war.

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