Image text: @agnieszkasshoes: "Part of what makes small talk so utterly debilitating for many of us who are neurodivergent is that having to smile and lie in answer to questions like, "how are you?" is exhausting to do even once, and society makes us do it countless times a day."

@LuckyHarmsGG: "It's not just the lie, it's the energy it takes to suppress the impulse to answer honestly, analyze whether the other person wants the truth, realize they almost certainly don't, and then have to make the DECISION to lie, every single time. Over and over. Decision fatigue is real"

@agnieszkasshoes: "Yes! The constant calculations are utterly exhausting - and all under the pressure of knowing that if you get it "wrong" you will be judged for it!"

My addition: For me, in addition to this, more specifically it's the energy to pull up that info and analyze how I am. Like I don't know the answer to that question and that's why it's so annoying. Now I need to analyze my day, decide what parts mean what to me and weigh the average basically, and then decide if that's appropriate to share/if the person really wants to hear the truth of that, then pull up my files of pre-prepared phrases for the question that fits most closely with the truth since not answering truthfully is close to impossible for me.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CvPSP-2xU4h/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

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[–] 6 points 3 years ago* (2 children)

I believe that part of the problem - at least in my case - is that typical person immediately sees 3-4 possible generic answers to such questions.

For me... It's like opening Pandora Box and have the brain flooded with not just answers but long chains of interactions, where none leads to anything positive. A "simple" question is like like an abyss that's gonna suck you down and exhaust you while you're trying to escape it so much, that you feel like lying down and trying to remember that air is meant to be inhaled again after it's exhaled...

There was this scene in the original Terminator movie, where the robot sees the spinning list of possible answers to "cat question". For me, this list doesn't stop. Even when the conversation is already finished, the list continues to spin.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (4 children)

    The "typical" person doesn't see 3 or 4 answers, they have prepared a few generic answers to those small questions, and anyone can do that. Unless you're really feeling different, and have enough intimacy with the asker to be honest, it's just a game of tic-tac-toe that anyone can learn.

    How are you doing? Fine, how's life treating you?

    Nice weather, eh? I've had better.

    Etc.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    First downvote on Lemmy because it's simply not true. To some people, smalltalk does come naturally.

    Also, having "a few generic answers" does not solve the problem. The mind still fills with way too many thoughts.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    Most of us neurodivergent people consider ourselves smart and observant. Observe those who you consider small talk comes naturally, and see how they fall into patterns. They're more elaborate that a non-answer catalogue, but they're still crutches to make ease the friction.

    An acquaintance of mine, for example, tells jokes. Some times they bomb, but he doesn't sweat it, they're still ice breakers. Another acquaintance immediately gets the attention of nearby females by retelling one more how he went randomly backpacking across Europe as a poor, young musician. If that doesn't work, he has other, equally entertaining tales, which we have few ways of fact checking, ha ha.

    But for us small-talk-stunted people, clever non-answers are a perfect crutch to fend off the awkwardness until we acquire this skill, and we can always refuse small talk if we're not in the mood.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    anyone can do that.

    ...

    Imagine that somebody places before you a dozen baskets all filled with white balls the size roughly of a ping-pong ball.

    They are all identical. There's no way to discern one from another.

    Then he says: pick the right ball, but be warned, picking some among them will result in a member of your family dying a horrible, gruesome death. Now choose, you have 20 seconds.

    And then he switches off the light.

    That's how it is.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    That's not how it is, you're comparing a Saw movie with small talk, talk about hyperbole.

    You can always say "I don't feel comfortable with small talk" if you don't want to make the effort of making your own quick-answer list, and no loved one of yours will die because of that.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 years ago

    It's hyperbole yes, but there's a kernal of truth to it.

    Consider that this conversation is one example of the hundreds of examples ND people experience every single day for how they are asked to mask their initial reactions/responses/preferences for seemingly arbitrary meaningless reasons "just because" that's how it's been done and no one wants to care about how it impacts us day in and day out.

    Consider how it is a cumulative effect that builds up. Frustration, embarrassment, confusion, annoyance, sadness, hurt, yes even rage at the stupidity and injustice of it all.

    These are the emotions ND people in your life are experiencing every day all day as they go about trying to survive and fit in in a world that is constantly telling them that they are wrong for the way they instinctively react to things and their preferred ways of being and interacting are not only weird and wrong but somehow disturbing and put a target on their back for disrespect or worse, bullying, being ostracized, fired, or targeted for harassment.

    Try to think about that before responding. Really think about what that would be like for someone to live with every single day in every interaction with other people.

    Oh, they can pretend. They can pretend so freaking well that loads of people have ZERO idea they are experiencing any of this. They just see them as a little shy and a little weird. A loner. Creepy maybe. Or maybe they are so good at masking you don't even see that. You see a happy friendly person. Meanwhile inside they are so fucking tired.

    All of these stupid little dances we have to play in order to be accepted. When being ourselves, why would that be so bad? It doesn't make any sense. But whenever we try to unmask, society very quickly shows us that is not acceptable.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (3 children)

    Since I think no one will see my comment at the bottom of the OP im going to reply it here as I think it's relevant to your content.

    For me, in addition to this, more specifically it's the energy to pull up that info and analyze how I am. Like I don't know the answer to that question and that's why it's so annoying. Now I need to analyze my day, decide what parts mean what to me and weigh the average basically, and then decide if that's appropriate to share/if the person really wants to hear the truth of that, then pull up my files of pre-prepared phrases for the question that fits most closely with the truth since not answering truthfully is close to impossible for me.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I'm old, but it took a lot of time to network/socialize. I know there's books/material to socialize now. I have learned to grey rock, and just go neutral with giving a response to most situations.

    This is a learned thing. No one teached us this back in the 80s or earlier. Life isn't easy, we learn as we get older. Yes, it's hard, but if some random person asks about your day, just say "great, how about you?". Put the focus back on them. Let them talk. Just listen. Oh, their grandma passed away last week? "Damn, I'm sorry to hear that. Let's remember her legacy, and know that she lived to her fullest."

    We are all still animals at the end of the day. You can make mistakes! Learn from them, and move on. Learn as you go.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    I just answer honestly. I don't have time to be a fake person.

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    [–] 4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)

    "I am functioning within established parameters."

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    [–] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Seeing all of these posts that I agree with in this community is really opening my eyes…

    My 4 year old daughter was diagnosed with autism and I’ve been learning so much just through her and some of the readings I’ve done.

    Excuse my ignorance, but is this a trait that is passed down? If so, I’m trying to figure out how did I make it this far in my life without the proper coping mechanisms.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    Yes, it is genetic. If you are a woman, that makes a lot of sense as the diagnostic criteria is only now starting to catch girls more frequently, even though it's still very flawed. Girls (and non-white people) are missed because the diagnostic criteria was developed studying young white boys exclusively. It turns out symptoms of autism are very variable and girls are much more likely to mask their symptoms and fly under the radar as just shy or quirky.

    Here's Kate Kahle on why autism is missed in girls https://youtu.be/UI6kObHls-4

    Here's a YouTube channel from a mom who was late diagnosed after her child was diagnosed https://youtu.be/zoXmrGtybts

    Autism Instagram talking about how the older generations of their families are all full of autism and just don't know it https://www.instagram.com/p/CvMwpDNxiPL/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct1VlsMxrSn/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== https://www.instagram.com/p/CmFFZuDMjXJ/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

    Scientific paper on heritability of autism "heritability was estimated to be 83%, suggesting that genetic factors may explain most of the risk for ASD. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5818813/

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Wow, thanks for all the information. I’m a black male and I would have to say that it’s not really talked about at all, because it’s a sign of seeming “weak”.

    That YouTube video you linked hit home and explains a lot of things that my ex partner did such as not taking care of her hygiene properly, and I just couldn’t understand at all.

    I’m thinking mostly that she was autistic and I’m starting to see that I demonstrate some signs, but not as much as she did. I’ve already started medication for anxiety and I can tell a world of difference in my daily interactions with people.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Haha my bad for assuming, maybe because you said daughter my brain just thought Mom idk I feel dumb. But being non-white is definitely also known for being missed for diagnosis.

    And something I've been thinking a lot about recently is that in the medical profession "diagnosis" is reserved for people whose symptoms impact them to a very specific (and arguably arbitrary) criteria of severity. And these criteria are constantly being challenged and updated since autism and ADHD (the conditions I'm most familiar with) are still very misunderstood and research is ongoing.

    But, in my opinion based on my understanding as a layperson with a special interest in psychology generally and autism and ADHD specifically, these conditions are Neurotypes that are spectrums. And so many people like myself, and perhaps yourself, may have a lot of symptoms but have managed to fly under the radar because we were able to get good enough grades in school for example, and have good enough social skills to make and maintain friendships, and get and keep jobs, all to varying extents. But inside, unbeknownst to those around us, we have been expending 10 times, 100 times the energy that most people use in order to meet those expectations put on us. And we just assumed everyone was struggling this hard with everything. But it turns out it's not supposed to be this hard.

    And that's why you see most autistic and ADHD folks diagnosed with other mental health conditions, like anxiety, and depression in particular. Anxiety because we learn to be on high alert for when we are not behaving in the socially acceptable way so we are constantly in fight or flight mode in order to stay on top of those expectations. Depression because it's fucking debilitating to be using so much energy to meet those expectations and constantly being on edge and constantly feeling like you're failing or messing up. But the root cause of all that is that our brains are wired differently and society is not made for us.

    I thought this was an absolutely excellent video about the Black experience with autism and getting diagnosed, still a little long half an hour, more focused on children but super valuable for adults as well. https://youtu.be/NyVfL8FZ_Vg

    This is a really excellent video by Melissa Simmonds who is Black British and autistic and a parent. It's almost an hour long and talks about being Black and autistic and the intersection of race and disability and culture and white privilege. I really appreciated learning about her perspective and the effort it took to create this presentation. I hope that it might give you a resource to find more information that you will relate with or find helpful. https://youtu.be/LW-C_MVxNEU

    Here is a YouTube channel by Bri Booth where she shares her experiences as a late diagnosed autistic Black woman that I've only seen a little bit of but I really liked the way she expresses herself and makes her videos. https://youtube.com/@BriBooth

    And here is a video I really appreciated by Jessica McCabe on her YouTube channel How to ADHD where she interviewed 13 people from 4 countries about their experiences being Black with ADHD. I don't know if that will be as useful, although the comorbidity rate for those with autism to also have ADHD is up to like 80% so I'm hoping some of these folks might lead you to additional resources https://youtu.be/oh-3ULQJiEY

    Unfortunately I couldn't find any YouTube channels that were specifically about the experience of late diagnosed autistic Black men but if you happen to find some and remember this comment, please do let me know because I would really like to learn more.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    No worries!

    And so many people like myself, and perhaps yourself, may have a lot of symptoms but have managed to fly under the radar because we were able to get good enough grades in school for example, and have good enough social skills to make and maintain friendships, and get and keep jobs, all to varying extents. But inside, unbeknownst to those around us, we have been expending 10 times, 100 times the energy that most people use in order to meet those expectations put on us. And we just assumed everyone was struggling this hard with everything. But it turns out it’s not supposed to be this hard.

    This makes so much sense. I do find myself struggling at times to keep certain relationships going with people I meet or sometimes even with just my friends. For example, sometimes when I get a message from a friend I end up not reading it, and saying to myself, "I'll look at it later", then that later becomes later and later... until it just constantly starts eating away at me every day and maybe two weeks later I might finally respond... I'm glad my friends that I do have don't take it that I'm being rude 😅

    Anxiety because we learn to be on high alert for when we are not behaving in the socially acceptable way so we are constantly in fight or flight mode in order to stay on top of those expectations.

    I definitely feel this. Sometimes I have to process in my head how to respond a certain away when I'm around people in a social setting, and when I actually say it out loud, I just think to myself how stupid that must have sounded and the people around me probably think that I'm weird.

    Thanks for the videos! I know what I'll be watching tonight, and if I do run into any videos regarding Black men diagnosed with autism I'll send them your way :)

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    In Finland nobody asks you that and if somebody does, everybody gives a direct and correct answer. It is one of the perks in any Finn that makes it hard for us to discuss with Americans if we're not used to them.

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    [–] 2 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    Now I understand why I don't have a problem with small talk. The people I make small talk with aren't assholes!

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    [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    Dan's final comment succinctly calls out the situations which irk me the most. You asked me how I'm doing. I answered honestly... and now you're going to judge me for that? Yeah, nah. I'd rather just not answer at all, thanks, instead of dealing with that bullcrap.

    Which, over the course of time, led me to the analytical conclusion that more often than not, most people don't actually care how -- or even if -- I answer at all, unless I make the "mistake" of answering honestly when I'm not feeling perfectly peachy. That's why I almost always answer with something vaguely nonsensical when asked how I'm doing by random strangers, such as, "Howdy, howdy!" Most of them are so locked into their autopilot that they only ever hear that first syllable, and immediately think I just asked them how they're doing... so they reflexively toss back their obligatory, "Oh, I'm fine." Once in a blue moon, one of them will skip a beat and realize what I actually said just after their reply, making the passing interaction vaguely uncomfortable for them. Which, you know... is actually just fine by me, since that's how I feel almost all the time.

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  • [+] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
    [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    This is why my default response is now either “alive”, or in the case of “how’s it going?”, “it’s going”

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago

    Hey there, how's it going?

    "Good!" - feeling alright

    "Hanging in there" - feeling a little rough but pulling through

    "It's going" - bad/tired (existential)

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago

    For me, I realize that I need to just say a couple of words to make it a pleasant exchange, but not being able to really share my feelings feels frustrating, kinda like how a kid feels frustrated when they need to moderate their feelings. A lot of the time I'm really exhausted and unhappy too so that makes it worse that I can't vent and have to moderate myself cuz I'm in a perpetual state of trying to keep my mask from slipping from burnout

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (3 children)

    Many people like Americans say as a trained friendly greeting "hi, how are you". Other people like Chinese say "hi, have you eaten (had rice) yet". They both simply need to be viewed as greetings. Neither actually want to know your full life story of your eating habits or the many bad things that may have happened to you in your day week or life.

    Don't try it here in Germany. Often people will try and test you and tell you a long story of many bad things to see if you "care". But it is in fact missing an important cultural contex. It is not that they don't care if you have eaten or that your wife is dieing of cancer... It is that is not what they were truly asking. It should be interpreted simply as a friendly greeting such as good morning. It is as inappropriate to responding to good morning with, "no it isn't. It's a terrible morning. I had diarrhea this morning and my cat died". The lady at the grocery store doesn't need these details and was simply being nice.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    that's the point of the post. ND folks tend to be bothered by this phenomenon. It's not that we don't already understand what you're saying. Many have commented here saying what you've just said, and like, yeah 100% and that's the issue. We get that it's a cultural norm that no one actually wants a real answer to.

    But autistic folks have a brain that is wired to take things at face value. We take things literally. We struggle to ignore the literal meanings of words and feel compelled to respond with our true response to that literal interpretation. We don't want to live constantly replacing the literal meaning of words with the NT meaning. This post is one example of the seemingly constant game of NT society that does not mean the words that they say. We are tired! Say what you mean! And stop treating us like we don't get it. We fucking get it. And we think it's fucking stupid and don't want to play.

    Sorry. This post keeps getting me in trouble bc I get riled up. I'm not yelling at * you * I'm just yelling to the sky with my fist shaking in the air.

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    [–] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    since in most other languages people don't ask "how are you" would this problem exist in other languages?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (2 children)

    I’m not neurodivergent, but small talk is fundamentally a conversation with no other purpose than to maintain, build and express social relationships. There’s no substantive information being passed. So I guess it is a concentrated dose of some people’s worst nightmare.

    By the way - there’s nothing wrong in a brief truthful answer if you a feeling a bit down, or you pulled a muscle in your neck or whatever

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  • [+] 2 points 3 years ago (6 children)
  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    It doesn't, and it doesn't intend to. Small talk is meant to give small doses of information about the other person, which may or may not be used in subsequent interactions. For instance, a brief exchange of comments about the state of the climate is not so much about whether it's raining or not but to gauge the tone of the other person and their facial expressions, from which other information is inferred, correctly or incorrectly.

    Which brings us to the next point: small talk sucks for autistic people not only because its utility is concealed to us, but because most allistics are going to misinterpret our nonverbal cues by comparing them to the cues of other allistic people.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    By the way - there’s nothing wrong in a brief truthful answer if you a feeling a bit down, or you pulled a muscle in your neck or whatever

    That’s how it should be. Unfortunately, there’s a fair amount of people who take your honesty as a direct affront to them. After all, how do I dare to say I’m not doing so well? At that point, the socially acceptable thing to do is to display some empathy for me, and they don’t like me enough to put that effort! I shouldn’t have strayed away from the script!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    The question is if it's important to be socially acceptable. I personally don't think it is. I've stopped holding back anything or "lying" like mentioned in this post, and sure I rub some people the wrong way, but why would I care? I just don't associate with them in that case.

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