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Average systemd debate (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago* by to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] 19 points 2 years ago (3 children)

"Just avoid places that sysadmins and security guys frequent and get your opinions on systemd from memes and people running arch on home machine". Great plan.

Systemd is absolute and utter shit, especially from security perspective.

Noone was asking security guys but package maintainers.

My favorite systemd thing is booting up a box with 6 NICs where only 1 was configured during the initial setup. Second favorite is betting on whether it will hang on reboot/shutdown.

Great tool, 10/10.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    My favorite was when the behavior of a USB drive in /etc/fstab went from "hmm it's not plugged in at boot, I'll let the user know" to "not plugged in? Abort! Abort! We can't boot!"

    This change over previous init behavior was especially fun on headless machines...

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    You could just use systemd mounts like a normal person. Fstab is for critical partitions

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  • [–] [S] 20 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Fstab is for critical partitions

    Hush everyone, don't tell this guy about noauto, it'll burst his bubble

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I've never seen it used in the wild

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Jesus, I mount everything manually from noauto, except root.

    If nfs isn't available, I don't want my system to hang, typing mount takes 2 seconds.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Wouldn't your NFS not mount in that case? Wouldn't you want it to retry periodically? Also, what happens to your service when NFS isn't available?

    Sounds like systemd mounts are better in this case (unless the device is non critical)

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    This happened to me when Debian switched from SysV to systemd. I am not the only person who experienced this (e.g., https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=147478 ).

    This is not to say the systemd behavior is wrong, but it essentially changed the behavior of fstab. Whether this is Debian's fault, Arch's fault (per the above link), systemd's fault, or my fault is a fair question. But this committed that most egregious of sins per our Lord and Savior Torvalds

    it broke my userspace.

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  • [–] [S] 13 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    I've gotten into quite a lot of systemd-related flame wars so far, and what strikes me is that I haven't heard a single reason why systemd is good and should be used in favor of openrc/sysvinit/whatever. The only arguments I hear in favor of systemd, even from the its diehard defenders, are justifications why it's not that bad. Not once have I heard someone advocate for systemd with reasoning that goes likes "Systemd is superior to legacy init systems because you can do X much easier" or "systemd is more secure because it's resistant against Y attack vector". It's always "Linus says it's allright" or "binary logfiles aren't a problem, you can just get them from journald instead of reading the file", or "everyone already uses it".

    When it comes to online discourse, systemd doesn't have advocates, it has apologists.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Well, I'll tell you that I prefer systemd because I can comprehend its declarative unit files and dependency-based system a lot better than the shell script DSLs and runlevels that I've had to mess with in other init systems. systemctl status has a quite nice output that can be really handy when debugging units. I like being able to pull up logs for just about any service on my system with a simple journalctl command instead of researching where the log file is.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 years ago

    Thank you for the detailed response, very informative. You make a really good point about centralized logging, I can see how that can be very helpful when you run A LOT of different server process on one machine. I get centralized logging as a bonus of running everything in Docker, but I can see how it is nice to have logging as part of the init system if you want to run a lot of services natively.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    I’ve gotten into quite a lot of systemd-related flame wars so far, and what strikes me is that I haven’t heard a single reason why systemd is good and should be used in favor of openrc/sysvinit/whatever.

    "Hi I'm new to Linux, I switched from Windows to Alpine Linux and my laptop's battery life has gone from 6 hours to 30 minutes before needing a charge."

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    β€œJust avoid places that sysadmins and security guys frequent and get your opinions on systemd from memes and people running arch on home machine”. Great plan.

    So salty. Also twisting the things I said. I for sure like to visit phoronix, but I avoid the phoronix forum and advice was to avoid the forum.

    Noone was asking security guys but package maintainers.

    citation needed.

    Keep using Devuan if it makes you happy.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    Not really interested in debating with average "I run arch btw" user. We are not in the same universe, things I have to audit and maintain are not in the same universe with things you do, so having such a smart advice coming from you is not a surprise at all. I could, after all, just roll out my own distro if I am not happy, amirite?

    I run systemd machines because I don't have a choice. It doesn't make it any less of a shit. Simple as that.

    But hey, tell me some more about systemd, I am really new to all this πŸ€”

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