sweng comments on Nuland has finally admitted that the Ukraine-Russia peace deal, nearly finalized in spring 2022, fell apart because of the US, UK, and other Western governments.

Nuland has finally admitted that the Ukraine-Russia peace deal, nearly finalized in spring 2022, fell apart because of the US, UK, and other Western governments. (media.mas.to)

submitted 2 years ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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[–] sweng@programming.dev -4 points 2 years ago* (3 children)

I'm sure the tens of thousand of dead russian troops and all those displaced russian families prefer that to just gaining trust with others, resulting in the end of support for Ukraine and a quick surrender. Apparently getting people killed is better than doing everything you can to end end the conflict.

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[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 9 points 2 years ago

Apparently getting people killed is better than doing everything you can to end end the conflict.

Apparently in the mind of the west, Ukraine and Zelensky in particular it is..

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[–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago*

Those talking points don't feel humiliating to say in the context of the interview you're replying under?

Do you have human feelings?

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] -3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Russia literally did everything possible to try and avoid this conflict for 8 years prior. Ending the conflict without achieving the objectives would be sheer idiocy as anybody who is not a complete imbecile would understand.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

Everything except building trust, it seems.

And who said anything about not achieving objectives? Unless the objective is to get people, both Russians and Ukrainians killed, I guess.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Building trust from whom, pretty much everybody outside west is on Russia's side:

The global majority understands why this war happened and the role the west played in creating the conditions for the war, as well as the role it plays in perpetuating it today.

The objective is to ensure that Ukraine never becomes a threat to Russia and that NATO expansion stops. that's the objective that is being achieved.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/das_eda/aktuell/dossiers/konferenz-zum-frieden-ukraine/Summit-on-Peace-in-ukraine-joint-communique-on-a-peace-framework.html

Quite a lot of non-western countries on that list, including the global south.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

And yet as links I provided clearly show vast majority of the global south supports Russia. You keep on coping though.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Your links actualy don't show that the "vast majority" spports Russia. And the reason is simple: because they don't. As can also clearly be seen in e.g. UN votes: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/24/un-tells-russia-to-leave-ukraine-how-did-countries-vote.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

I see reading comprehension isn't your strong point, but that should be no surprise at this point.

These findings have caused some surprise and even anger in the West. It’s difficult for Western thought leaders to comprehend that two-thirds of the world’s population is just not lining up with the West in this conflict. However, I believe there are five reasons why the Global South is not taking the West’s side. I discuss these reasons in the short essay below.

Over the past year the number of countries actively condemning Russia has fallen from 131 to 122, as some emerging economies have shifted to a neutral position. This US- and EU-led bloc, which represents about 36% of the global population, has exhibited a strong level of collaboration on sanctions, as well as solid military and economic support to Ukraine.

U.S. officials point out that 141 of 193 countries at the United Nations voted to condemn Russia after the invasion and that 143 voted in October to censure the Kremlin’s announced annexation of parts of Ukraine. But only 33 countries have imposed sanctions on Russia, and a similar number are sending lethal aid to Ukraine.

The reality of the situation is that the west finds itself completely isolated.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Ah, you define support as "not actively opposed"? That is an incredibly low bar.

Again, the UN vote clearly shows that the countries don't support Russia or think what the country does is right.

The fact that poor countries arw in no position to sanction anyone does not mean they support Russia.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

I define support in tangible terms. The only countries that took any actual action against Russia are burgerland and its vassals. The action the rest of the world has been taking is to increase trade with Russia and to masively apply to BRICS.

The UN vote doesn't show much of anything, especially given that most populous countries abstained. If you think that poor countries support the west over Russia after what the west has been doing to them, then you're utterly delusional. Maybe you should ask yourself why African countries are kicking out the west with Russian help.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

If you think that poor countries support the west over Russia after what the west has been doing to them, then you’re utterly delusional. M

I'm not, and nowhere did I claim that. I said they don't support Russia. What kind of depressing world do you live in where you have to support either the West or Russia. Countries are free to do their own thing, and do not need to support either. To spell it out: A country can oppose Russia, while at the same time also not support the West.

The UN resolution clearly shows: The vssz majority of countries, including the global south, think what Russia is doing is wrong. Many of them continue to trade with Russia despite the attack on Ukraine, not because of it. It should come as no surprise that especially poorer coutries can not pick and choose who they trade with.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

It's pretty obvious from all the actions the global majority countries have taken that they do in fact support Russia. And the reason they support Russia is very simple, they understand why this war started and which party is the problem.

The UN resolution clearly shows: The vssz majority of countries, including the global south, think what Russia is doing is wrong.

Except that it doesn't show anything of the sort. You can repeat this until you're blue in the face, it won't make it true. In fact, even educated people in the west know who is doing wrong. People like Chomsky, Mearsheimer, and many others have explained in great detail how the west is responsible for what's happening in Ukraine. Just a couple of examples

This is well understood by anybody who hasn't been brainwashed by western media for the past two years.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

It’s pretty obvious from all the actions the global majority countries have taken that they do in fact support Russia

Is that why they keep codemning Russia in various UN resolutions? The numbers speak for themselves.

It does't matter if educated westeners think Russia is right: that's not what's being discussed. Unless you think the opinions of white westeners like Chomsky override the actual position of poorer countries? "Oh, Chomsky agrees with Russia? Sorry Botswana, you have to also support Russia now, Chomsky said so. Better fire your UN ambassador, they forgot to ask Chomsky what he thought, before voting to condemn Russia".

I haven't heard anything so patronizing and colonoalistic in a long time.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Is that why they keep codemning Russia in various UN resolutions? The numbers speak for themselves.

Except they're not doing that, the global majority countries are at best abstaining. And the only reason they're doing that is not to piss off the US further. Go look up where most people in the world actually live.

It does’t matter if educated westeners think Russia is right: that’s not what’s being discussed.

What educated westerners think matches what people living outside the west think.

I haven’t heard anything so patronizing and colonoalistic in a long time.

That's because all you've got is a straw man that has nothing to do with what I was saying. What was actually said to you is that even educated people in the west understand what the rest of the world understands. You just flipped that around because you're intellectually dishonest.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

What educated westerners think matches what people living outside the west think.

Wow, just wow. So we don't actually need to ask e.g indiginous people of their opinions, it's enough to ask "educated westeners". Which century are we living in?

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Wow, just wow. So we don’t actually need to ask e.g indiginous people of their opinions, it’s enough to ask “educated westeners”. Which century are we living in?

Really need to work on your reading comprehension there. This is frankly embarrassing. Let me try using simpler language that you might have a hope of understanding.

The people in the global south, e.g. indigenous people, have opinions that are entirely independent of what ignoramuses in the west think. Their majority opinion aligns with Russia.

However, a handful of educated westerners are able to reach this same understanding that the rest of the world has instead of just guzzling propaganda the way people such as yourself do.

Let me know if you're still struggling with this and need me to chew it up for you a bit more.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Why are you bringing up westeners at all, as if that somehow strengthens the point? It reveals your inner biases. "The opinions of the south is not enough, I have to bring in westeners to give my argument some weight".

Sometimes peple reveal more than they intended when they write.

Their majority opinion aligns with Russia.

You keep repeating that, but the data does not support it.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 1 point 2 years ago

I'm bringing up westerners to illustrate that this position isn't controversial for anybody who has a clue. Since people in the west have been the primary subjects of western propaganda about the conflict, it's remarkable that there are people in the west who are able to see past that.

Sometimes peple reveal more than they intended when they write.

You certainly are doing that here.

You keep repeating that, but the data does not support it.

It does, but it's obvious that you'll never acknowledge that.

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[+] twinnie@feddit.uk 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

[removed by mod]

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[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Sorry @yogthos@lemmy.ml, but I'm with @twinnie@feddit.uk on this one.

He clearly intellectually bested you with his superior, meritocratic, totally sound and valid argument of you being a Russian bot.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 2 years ago

😆

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 2 points 2 years ago

Yeah, sure NATO expanded altruistically to protect Russia's neighbours. Imagine actually believing that.

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[–] sweng@programming.dev 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

that NATO expansion stops. that’s the objective that is being achieved.

Remind me again how many member states NATO had before the invasion, and how many it has now?

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 1 point 2 years ago

The question is which states, but having no clue regarding the subject you're opining on it's not surprising that you wouldn't understand that. Maybe if you spent your time actually learning things instead of trolling then you'd understand the strategic importance of Ukraine. Maybe go read up on WW2 sometime and see which path the nazis took to Russia then.

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[–] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Russia literally did everything possible to try and avoid this conflict for 8 years prior.

War is a business for everyone not just for the US. World leaders seek money and wealth and war grants it

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The difference is that the military industrial complex in the west is privately owned, which creates the perverse incentive for profit from war. Meanwhile, Russian military industry is predominantly state owned and operating it is a cost for the state.

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[–] index@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

cost for the s̶t̶a̶t̶e̶ people

Rich people get richer peasants get poorer, i don't see much difference.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The difference is pretty clear from the number of wars US and Russia have been involved in actually.

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[–] index@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

You don't have to chose one. Side with people and not with the rulers

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml [S] 5 points 2 years ago

Nowhere did I say that you have to choose one. Russia is a capitalist state that mirrors the west in many of the worst ways. However, it's a well documented fact that Russia did in fact try to avoid this war.

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[–] FriendBesto@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

Although true. The root is that no super power likes another super power or its proxies on their borders. Russia does not and stated as such for decades. Hell, China literally helps fund the NK government and puts up with it, so it does not have SK, and its American bases on its south border. The USA put an embargo on Cuba for over 60 years because they put Russian weapons 90kms from Florida and Cuba would not capitulate. So much for the Cubans and the USA's hypocrisy to memory hole this fact.

Yet somehow many Americans are so blind to not understand that Russia does not want Ukraine as an USA puppet next to them, which they would be. They see it as a clear and present danger --whether others see it or care, does not matter-- just like how the USA saw Cuba. I think we can all agree that Putin is a despot but to not see and understand of just how obvious Super power Geopolitics works or only see the one side of the issue because it is convinient is quite the statement on USA propaganda and the ongoing push for expanding of the Monroe Doctrine as status quo. Operation Condor comes to mind.

Super powers actually care little about smaller countries if they so not fit or push their specific geopolitical interests. No exceptions. Despite the real loses of human life, to the American government the Russia/Ukraine conflict is a but proxy war meant to weaken Russia for its own geopolitical goals. Some politicians stated as such already, despite the previous humanitarian PR. Calling any of this so-called Russia propanda as a way of side stepping by some, does not make it any less correct. Sadly.

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