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Xinjiang vs USA subway (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 3 years ago by to c/genzedong@lemmygrad.ml
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[–] 10 points 3 years ago (5 children)

I agree that the system is absolute dogshit in NYC, but how do you go about fixing that? Xinjiang had the benefit of being brand new, so there were no existing travelers, and it’s not like you can just close down a station in NYC and say “Oopsie; get fucked everyone who used this line/station, come back in a few weeks/months”.

It’s a lose lose.

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  • [–] 34 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    it’s not like you can just close down a station

    It’s pretty much like that, then like someone else said you provide a bus route between the two stations. It's an inconvenience but has to happen at some time.

    For smaller repairs like painting you an paint half of the station while keeping the other half operational, then finish the job some days later.

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  • [+] -7 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    It sounds very easy on paper, but that suggestion is just horrifically infeasible. It’s not that it’s an inconvenience, it’s just much more complicated and logistically impossible then how you’re portraying it.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    If everything good is impossible, maybe the USA should just cease to exist? Why is it that China can achieve so much so quickly when the USA hasn't achieved anything remotely positive since the fucking moon landing?

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  • [+] -7 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    Because that is building a station in an area that did not previously have that form of transportation, and thus does not have a massive quantity of people that rely on it for daily survival?

    What a fucking bizarre train of thought. Literally toddler logic, “Waaaah, the fix isn’t simple and easy so it might as well cease to be! Fuck all the working people that make up the population! Here’s an asinine reason why they all deserve to be thrown in the garbage!”

    Also really? I despise the US too, and it’s leadership has been a force of immense evil, but you can’t think of a single positive thing someone in the US has done, or a single positive thing that has happened in the US in the past 50 years? Not a single thing?

    Also why has China been able to accomplish so much? Their systems of organization. That’s it. The end. What else do you want to know?

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  • [–] 12 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Also really? I despise the US too, and it’s leadership has been a force of immense evil, but you can’t think of a single positive thing someone in the US has done, or a single positive thing that has happened in the US in the past 50 years? Not a single thing?

    It's like trying to find the good in apartheid South Africa. Something positive must be there (the music), but overall, it's not good.

    Their systems of organization.

    We should adopt this here. Other countries with relatively old metro lines (South Korea's oldest was built in 1974, China's oldest is three years older) have a shitload of people using them but also ways to repair and upgrade things (already discussed by others in this thread) without too much inconvenience. NYC doesn't upgrade its subway because it's run by shitlibs who are owned by the bourgeoisie, who lose money when society is even remotely functional.

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  • [–] -4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    I agree wholeheartedly, about the adoption, but those types of upgrades and repairs happen quickly and with minimal invasiveness as to not cause disruption. I was arguing against the wholesale shutting down of stations to run repairs and leave tens of thousands completely stuck and screwed over.

    It’s like trying to find the good in apartheid South Africa. Something positive must be there (the music), but overall, it’s not good.

    I disagree completely. Plus that's extremely vague, "Overall its not good". Ok and? Your solution was to abandon everything, so you don't seem like the best arbiter to make judgements like that. Also, that's still extremely dismissive and asinine. Discoveries, inventions, systems, and events in the US have completely reshaped several aspects of the world over the past 50 years for better of for worse. To try and associate that to a positive like South African music is bizarre. I'm sure South African music has had an equal effect on the world as the smartphone did, the literal internet, a long list of medical discoveries and drugs, breakthroughs and innovation across multiple sectors and so on.

    How was that done? On the backs of workers who created and developed everything on the enormous list of accomplishments in the past 50 years. Does this mean the US is amazing? No. The system and leadership is still rotten to the core. But to say "Oops, can't think of a single thing", is extremely bad faith arguing.

    Do you really think the working class of the US has not done anything? The list of negatives we associate with the US all come from it's system and leadership up above in some respect, not down below.

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  • [–] 20 points 3 years ago

    If you're talking about the bus route then you just don't know what you're talking about. Like others have said it already happens in Moscow and DC, and I can add my own experience with Athens.

    Obviously if they want to do repairs or maintenance they don't close one station, they close part of the line and replace it with an express bus line. Yes it's slower and will make traffic worse but it simply must happen at some time.

    Going by your logic, creating a subway system in a city with traffic issues is a "lose lose" because the roadworks will make traffic worse for a couple of years.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    @ComradeSalad @sevenapples Tokyoite here. "Logistically Impossible" my ass - Shibuya station was completely renovated just a few years ago. They just opened a brand new station in the Yamanote Line. Old stations are repaired and upgraded all the time here.

    The US simply does not care about public transit, and Americans invent all kinds of excuses to avoid facing the fact of local incompetence and lack of political will.

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  • [–] -3 points 3 years ago

    I’m not making excuses. I mean currently with the resources and systems available, it is not possible.

    You’re right, the government does not care about public transit.

    Do you think this is a group decision or something?

    “Local incompetence? Lack of political will? Fuck off, I'm sure the people working 50 hours a week and poverty wage jobs are absolutely roaring with energy to fight for public transit.

    Imagine blaming the people.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    When stations are repaired in Moscow, they are completely closed and some kind of bus route is launched, where you can travel with a metro ticket.

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  • [+] -6 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (3 children)

    Good luck getting that to ever happen in the United States. Also buses would be very impractical and near impossible to cover long distances.

    Plus traffic.

    As an edit: I’m not saying that busses are bad or impractical. They’re the best form of short range public transit. I’m saying that buses in the this scenario would be extremely impractical and logistically impossible to implement.

    The people here have never driven through gridlocked rush hour traffic on the Manhattan or Brooklyn bridges, and think that a bus is going to magically make it to its destination without getting stuck for hours or chasing traffic jams on its own.

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  • [–] 18 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    You only have to go to the next station, which if we’re talking about NYC metro, shouldn’t be that far away

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    That depends heavily on the Burrough. Plus there are several spots of the Bronx and Brooklyn that are complete dead zones because the stations are in poor working class areas, and not the ultra wealthy areas in Queens and Manhattan (where surprisingly enough the stations can be beautiful and well maintained because well…. Rich people serving their own)

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago

    I disagree. The best form of short range public transit is the cross breed of a streetcar and a wedge-type snowplow. Forget stopping for cars that ignore the "red light for streetcar crossing" lights, just bifurcate them and keep moving.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    NYC covers about 800 square km. Moscow is 2,500 square km and much bigger than that if you count the adjoining metropolitan areas. The standard "America is different because so big" argument doesn't work against the largest country on earth by area.

    Moscow traffic is also notoriously shit so it's not like that's a differentiating factor either.

    Plus, the likes of London and Paris also have old metro systems that are much better maintained than NYC, so idk what combination of excuses NYC has.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I think it is more of a "this won't work because traffic in New York is too bad."

    Which is like...yeah? That's kind of why the metro desperately needs an upgrade, so more people can use it and prevent the gridlock?

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  • [–] -1 points 3 years ago

    I agree.

    It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.

    These stations need to be upgraded, repaired, and overhauled, but it’s not as simple as “close these stations down and invent a magical bus system for the time bieng”. It’s an extremely sensitive situation and I don’t feel like people are understanding. It’s not that it shouldn’t happen, but the level of disruption would be catastrophic for thousands of people. It’s a bad situation.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago*

    This isn’t an “America is big” problem?

    What is the population density of New York vs Moscow?

    New York is 27,000 per square kilometer. Moscow is around 8.5 thousand.

    Combine that extreme density with infrastructure that was built hundreds of years ago, and additionally several chokepoints at only a few major bridges and tunnels.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    What? That's exactly what happens. Various stations in Washington DC have been closed, for 6+ months at a time, the past two years, for renovations. They made do with route workaround and shuttles in the meantime. Are you implying stations shouldn't update just because it might cause inconvenience? Safety trumps inconvenience.

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  • [+] -9 points 3 years ago* (2 children)

    Where did I say that we should update because of inconvenience???

    I’m saying that millions of people every day rely on these stations to get to work, school, stores etc, and it is to far to walk or bike; and many of them cannot afford a cab or Uber, let alone own a car.

    I’m saying that it feels impossible to close down a station without disenfranchising a quite massive amount of people with no other options.

    Also where did I mention safety at all?

    This isn’t an issue of convenience; it’s an issue of “life or death”, “Oops sorry! Can’t get to your job anymore because the nearest station is closed? Tough luck!”

    Also imagine comparing DC to New York lmaoooo

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  • [–] 15 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Unless it’s due to the edit, their post mentions other options: the city provides shuttles or other transportation so you can get to the next station

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  • [–] -5 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (2 children)

    True, but logistically how would that be viable? Buses would be highly impractical on the vast majority of road due to traffic, and the sheer amount of people that would require shuttles, and what “other transportation”? That’s all that’s there is. People can’t afford cabs, Ubers, or cars, and the distance is to great (or just straight dangerous) to walk or bike.

    You can’t just reverse decades of car centric and awful infrastructure with an easy fix.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago

    On a station level basis, even if you can't do servicing piecemeal (refurbish the northbound platform, then the southbound one), most subways have stops within "walk but somewhat inconvenient" distance-- 1km or less apart. You can often annoy out-of-towners by giving them an itinerary that results in them changing trains three times and spending 45 minutes to get between two stations within line of sight of each other.

    But seriously, for people with extreme access needs, I wonder if putting a few of those "multi row golf cart" style mini electric vehicles looping around could provide stopgap service to the nearest operating station.

    We already need some degree of spare capacity; how does the service survive in the event of an accident if there's no double-tracking?

    Wait, I know this one. Toronto intended to retire an entire subway line in late 2023 (claiming it was already past the end-of-life for the equipment, and promising it would be replaced with new subways in 2030. They ended up shuttering it months earlier because of a derailment. (https://www.ttc.ca/about-the-ttc/projects-and-plans/Future-of-Line-3-Scarborough)

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