▲ 731 ▼ Supreme leader mad (sh.itjust.works) submitted 2 years ago by 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world 101 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] tubbadu@lemmy.kde.social 92 points 2 years ago (10 children) Is there some lore about this I don't know? permalink fedilink source hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 137 points 2 years ago (2 children) There is no C++ allowed in the Linux kernel and Linus has gone on several major rants about how terrible a language it is. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 53 points 2 years ago (4 children) Is it all C? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 86 points 2 years ago (1 child) There’s assembly and makefiles too Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 26 points 2 years ago rust too permalink fedilink source parent [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 85 points 2 years ago (2 children) According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is: C 98.3% Assembly 0.7% Shell 0.4% Makefile 0.2% Python 0.2% Perl 0.1% Other 0.1% So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 child) Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) Wot no Delphi? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] FlorianSimon@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 1 point 2 years ago Yeah, indeed, why not 🤔... permalink fedilink source parent [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 17 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] doriancodes@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I've read that they are writing parts of the kernel in Rust permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent [–] VitabytesDev@feddit.nl 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Always has been permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago Why do I suddenly feel a meme coming on? 😅 permalink fedilink source parent [–] refalo@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Then why does he write C++? https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface/commit/1b16d570a1b6700295153bd6597b148b65000458 permalink fedilink source parent [–] Rossphorus@lemm.ee 76 points 2 years ago (3 children) Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He's gone on the record saying that he thinks it's just not a good language. In his own words "C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 55 points 2 years ago (1 child) he's not wrong permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 32 points 2 years ago (2 children) In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible permalink fedilink source parent [–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits). Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented. It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, […]. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. Are you high? I was praising the STL, you know, the template library? permalink fedilink source parent [–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with. permalink fedilink source parent [–] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 12 points 2 years ago I would have agreed with that before C++11. But since then, C++ has improved a lot. Its like the vision of what C++ suddenly became more clear. So I wonder if Linus would still say that today. (Unfortunately, there have been a lot of missteps in the development of C++ though, and so there is a lot of cruft that everyone wishes was not there...) permalink fedilink source parent [–] jalkasieni@sopuli.xyz 53 points 2 years ago ”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.” http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus permalink fedilink source parent [–] raoul@lemmy.sdf.org 41 points 2 years ago (1 child) I don't know about Linus, but the last time Reiser's wife was seen, she was writing a c++ hello world permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ikidd@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago Too soon. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago (2 children) For an example from the other poster’s explanation: https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ This was pre c++11 - not sure if he’s changed his mind at all with more modern c++ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 5C5C5C@programming.dev 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) He absolutely has not. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) That’s my guess, but there was a conversation on the mailing list a few months ago that wasn’t just immediately shut down, even by other prolific developers Ts’o seems skeptical, but is at least asking whether c++ has improved https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240110175755.GC1006537@mit.edu/ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn't be allowed in: (1) new and delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in. (2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less obvious, and the replacement of static initialisation with constructor calls would make the code size larger. (3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error. (4) Operator overloading (except in special cases). (5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases). (6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that don't exist in g++). (7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'. (8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function tables might make operations tables more efficient. C++ without class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) That doesn’t really surprise me, as most of those are the same requirements from any embedded development use case using c++ that I’ve worked on 4 and 5 are the only ones stricter than I’m used to permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 point 2 years ago time to go pedantic and use parts of the c++stdlib that weren't included in the stl! permalink fedilink source parent [–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I don't think its the ergonomics of the language he has an issue with. If anything C++1x probably just made the original critiques of bloat worse. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (3 children) In that post, his critiques were around the problems with the STL and everyone using Boost. The STL has improved significantly since then, and it would be a limited subset of c++ if it was ever allowed There have been mailing list conversations earlier this year, citing that clang/gcc now allowing c++ in their own code might mean they’ve taken care of the issues that made it unusable for kernel code https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e5949a27-999d-4b6e-8c49-3dbed32a00bc@zytor.com/ I’m not saying it will happen, but it’s not being shot down as an absolute insanity anymore, and I wouldn’t have expected Rust to be allowed in the kernel, either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies) [–] vox@sopuli.xyz 25 points 2 years ago (1 child) ”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.” http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MashedTech@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago (1 child) Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 years ago JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really. permalink fedilink source parent [+] jalkasieni@sopuli.xyz 5 points 2 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [+] jalkasieni@sopuli.xyz 3 points 2 years ago [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] Titou@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago Linus is a C advocate btw, which make him even more goated permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 137 points 2 years ago (2 children) There is no C++ allowed in the Linux kernel and Linus has gone on several major rants about how terrible a language it is. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 53 points 2 years ago (4 children) Is it all C? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 86 points 2 years ago (1 child) There’s assembly and makefiles too Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 26 points 2 years ago rust too permalink fedilink source parent [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 85 points 2 years ago (2 children) According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is: C 98.3% Assembly 0.7% Shell 0.4% Makefile 0.2% Python 0.2% Perl 0.1% Other 0.1% So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 child) Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) Wot no Delphi? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] FlorianSimon@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 1 point 2 years ago Yeah, indeed, why not 🤔... permalink fedilink source parent [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 17 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] doriancodes@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I've read that they are writing parts of the kernel in Rust permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent [–] VitabytesDev@feddit.nl 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Always has been permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago Why do I suddenly feel a meme coming on? 😅 permalink fedilink source parent [–] refalo@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Then why does he write C++? https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface/commit/1b16d570a1b6700295153bd6597b148b65000458 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 53 points 2 years ago (4 children) Is it all C? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 86 points 2 years ago (1 child) There’s assembly and makefiles too Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 26 points 2 years ago rust too permalink fedilink source parent [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 85 points 2 years ago (2 children) According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is: C 98.3% Assembly 0.7% Shell 0.4% Makefile 0.2% Python 0.2% Perl 0.1% Other 0.1% So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 child) Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) Wot no Delphi? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] FlorianSimon@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 1 point 2 years ago Yeah, indeed, why not 🤔... permalink fedilink source parent [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 17 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] doriancodes@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I've read that they are writing parts of the kernel in Rust permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent [–] VitabytesDev@feddit.nl 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Always has been permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago Why do I suddenly feel a meme coming on? 😅 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 86 points 2 years ago (1 child) There’s assembly and makefiles too Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 26 points 2 years ago rust too permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 85 points 2 years ago (2 children) According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is: C 98.3% Assembly 0.7% Shell 0.4% Makefile 0.2% Python 0.2% Perl 0.1% Other 0.1% So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 child) Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) Wot no Delphi? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] FlorianSimon@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 1 point 2 years ago Yeah, indeed, why not 🤔... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 child) Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (1 child) Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) Sometimes you can't get around it though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago Afaik MSVC forbids it and it’s one of the very few nice things about c++ on windows. If you need to write assembly don’t fucking do it in a cpp file. Create a header, an assembly file, assemble it and link to it. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) Wot no Delphi? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] FlorianSimon@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 1 point 2 years ago Yeah, indeed, why not 🤔... permalink fedilink source parent
[+] FlorianSimon@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 1 point 2 years ago Yeah, indeed, why not 🤔... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 17 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] doriancodes@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I've read that they are writing parts of the kernel in Rust permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] doriancodes@infosec.pub 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I've read that they are writing parts of the kernel in Rust permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 4 points 2 years ago (2 children) Yes, I think Rust is a better C++ and will replace it in many places. Though all three will be around for ever to be honest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) [–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works [S] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Yes, first Rust code was released in 6.6 I think and MS also started implementing Rust code in the Windows kernel. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) Rust is certainly interesting. I think it's the C++ we need. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] refalo@programming.dev 1 point 2 years ago Personally I find the syntax unreadable. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] VitabytesDev@feddit.nl 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Always has been permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago Why do I suddenly feel a meme coming on? 😅 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago Why do I suddenly feel a meme coming on? 😅 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] refalo@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) Then why does he write C++? https://github.com/subsurface/subsurface/commit/1b16d570a1b6700295153bd6597b148b65000458 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Rossphorus@lemm.ee 76 points 2 years ago (3 children) Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He's gone on the record saying that he thinks it's just not a good language. In his own words "C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 55 points 2 years ago (1 child) he's not wrong permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 32 points 2 years ago (2 children) In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible permalink fedilink source parent [–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits). Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented. It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, […]. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. Are you high? I was praising the STL, you know, the template library? permalink fedilink source parent [–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with. permalink fedilink source parent [–] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 12 points 2 years ago I would have agreed with that before C++11. But since then, C++ has improved a lot. Its like the vision of what C++ suddenly became more clear. So I wonder if Linus would still say that today. (Unfortunately, there have been a lot of missteps in the development of C++ though, and so there is a lot of cruft that everyone wishes was not there...) permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 55 points 2 years ago (1 child) he's not wrong permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 32 points 2 years ago (2 children) In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible permalink fedilink source parent [–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits). Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented. It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, […]. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. Are you high? I was praising the STL, you know, the template library? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 32 points 2 years ago (2 children) In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible permalink fedilink source parent [–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits). Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented. It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, […]. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. Are you high? I was praising the STL, you know, the template library? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible permalink fedilink source parent
[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits). Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented. It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, […]. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. Are you high? I was praising the STL, you know, the template library? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, […]. I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. Are you high? I was praising the STL, you know, the template library? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 12 points 2 years ago I would have agreed with that before C++11. But since then, C++ has improved a lot. Its like the vision of what C++ suddenly became more clear. So I wonder if Linus would still say that today. (Unfortunately, there have been a lot of missteps in the development of C++ though, and so there is a lot of cruft that everyone wishes was not there...) permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jalkasieni@sopuli.xyz 53 points 2 years ago ”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.” http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus permalink fedilink source parent
[–] raoul@lemmy.sdf.org 41 points 2 years ago (1 child) I don't know about Linus, but the last time Reiser's wife was seen, she was writing a c++ hello world permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ikidd@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago Too soon. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago (2 children) For an example from the other poster’s explanation: https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/ This was pre c++11 - not sure if he’s changed his mind at all with more modern c++ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] 5C5C5C@programming.dev 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) He absolutely has not. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) That’s my guess, but there was a conversation on the mailing list a few months ago that wasn’t just immediately shut down, even by other prolific developers Ts’o seems skeptical, but is at least asking whether c++ has improved https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240110175755.GC1006537@mit.edu/ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn't be allowed in: (1) new and delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in. (2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less obvious, and the replacement of static initialisation with constructor calls would make the code size larger. (3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error. (4) Operator overloading (except in special cases). (5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases). (6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that don't exist in g++). (7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'. (8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function tables might make operations tables more efficient. C++ without class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) That doesn’t really surprise me, as most of those are the same requirements from any embedded development use case using c++ that I’ve worked on 4 and 5 are the only ones stricter than I’m used to permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 point 2 years ago time to go pedantic and use parts of the c++stdlib that weren't included in the stl! permalink fedilink source parent [–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I don't think its the ergonomics of the language he has an issue with. If anything C++1x probably just made the original critiques of bloat worse. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (3 children) In that post, his critiques were around the problems with the STL and everyone using Boost. The STL has improved significantly since then, and it would be a limited subset of c++ if it was ever allowed There have been mailing list conversations earlier this year, citing that clang/gcc now allowing c++ in their own code might mean they’ve taken care of the issues that made it unusable for kernel code https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e5949a27-999d-4b6e-8c49-3dbed32a00bc@zytor.com/ I’m not saying it will happen, but it’s not being shot down as an absolute insanity anymore, and I wouldn’t have expected Rust to be allowed in the kernel, either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] 5C5C5C@programming.dev 11 points 2 years ago (1 child) He absolutely has not. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) That’s my guess, but there was a conversation on the mailing list a few months ago that wasn’t just immediately shut down, even by other prolific developers Ts’o seems skeptical, but is at least asking whether c++ has improved https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240110175755.GC1006537@mit.edu/ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn't be allowed in: (1) new and delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in. (2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less obvious, and the replacement of static initialisation with constructor calls would make the code size larger. (3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error. (4) Operator overloading (except in special cases). (5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases). (6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that don't exist in g++). (7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'. (8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function tables might make operations tables more efficient. C++ without class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) That doesn’t really surprise me, as most of those are the same requirements from any embedded development use case using c++ that I’ve worked on 4 and 5 are the only ones stricter than I’m used to permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 point 2 years ago time to go pedantic and use parts of the c++stdlib that weren't included in the stl! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) That’s my guess, but there was a conversation on the mailing list a few months ago that wasn’t just immediately shut down, even by other prolific developers Ts’o seems skeptical, but is at least asking whether c++ has improved https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20240110175755.GC1006537@mit.edu/ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn't be allowed in: (1) new and delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in. (2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less obvious, and the replacement of static initialisation with constructor calls would make the code size larger. (3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error. (4) Operator overloading (except in special cases). (5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases). (6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that don't exist in g++). (7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'. (8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function tables might make operations tables more efficient. C++ without class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) That doesn’t really surprise me, as most of those are the same requirements from any embedded development use case using c++ that I’ve worked on 4 and 5 are the only ones stricter than I’m used to permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 point 2 years ago time to go pedantic and use parts of the c++stdlib that weren't included in the stl! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 2 years ago* (2 children) Take a look at what even the proposer is saying wouldn't be allowed in: (1) new and delete. There's no way to pass GFP_* flags in. (2) Constructors and destructors. Nests of implicit code makes the code less obvious, and the replacement of static initialisation with constructor calls would make the code size larger. (3) Exceptions and RTTI. RTTI would bulk the kernel up too much and exception handling is limited without it, and since destructors are not allowed, you still have to manually clean up after an error. (4) Operator overloading (except in special cases). (5) Function overloading (except in special inline cases). (6) STL (though some type trait bits are needed to replace __builtins that don't exist in g++). (7) 'class', 'private', 'namespace'. (8) 'virtual'. Don't want virtual base classes, though virtual function tables might make operations tables more efficient. C++ without class, constructors, destructors, most overloading and the STL? Wow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) That doesn’t really surprise me, as most of those are the same requirements from any embedded development use case using c++ that I’ve worked on 4 and 5 are the only ones stricter than I’m used to permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) [–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 point 2 years ago time to go pedantic and use parts of the c++stdlib that weren't included in the stl! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago (2 children) That doesn’t really surprise me, as most of those are the same requirements from any embedded development use case using c++ that I’ve worked on 4 and 5 are the only ones stricter than I’m used to permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 years ago I've only worked on a few embedded systems where C++ was even an option, but they allowed 2, 4, 5, and 7. Though, for the most part most classes were simple interfaces to some sort of SPI/I2C/CAN/EtherCAT device, most of which were singletons. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 1 point 2 years ago time to go pedantic and use parts of the c++stdlib that weren't included in the stl! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago (1 child) I don't think its the ergonomics of the language he has an issue with. If anything C++1x probably just made the original critiques of bloat worse. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (3 children) In that post, his critiques were around the problems with the STL and everyone using Boost. The STL has improved significantly since then, and it would be a limited subset of c++ if it was ever allowed There have been mailing list conversations earlier this year, citing that clang/gcc now allowing c++ in their own code might mean they’ve taken care of the issues that made it unusable for kernel code https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e5949a27-999d-4b6e-8c49-3dbed32a00bc@zytor.com/ I’m not saying it will happen, but it’s not being shot down as an absolute insanity anymore, and I wouldn’t have expected Rust to be allowed in the kernel, either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago (3 children) In that post, his critiques were around the problems with the STL and everyone using Boost. The STL has improved significantly since then, and it would be a limited subset of c++ if it was ever allowed There have been mailing list conversations earlier this year, citing that clang/gcc now allowing c++ in their own code might mean they’ve taken care of the issues that made it unusable for kernel code https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/e5949a27-999d-4b6e-8c49-3dbed32a00bc@zytor.com/ I’m not saying it will happen, but it’s not being shot down as an absolute insanity anymore, and I wouldn’t have expected Rust to be allowed in the kernel, either permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments load more comments (3 replies)
[–] vox@sopuli.xyz 25 points 2 years ago (1 child) ”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.” http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] MashedTech@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago (1 child) Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 years ago JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MashedTech@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago (1 child) Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 years ago JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 years ago JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Titou@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago Linus is a C advocate btw, which make him even more goated permalink fedilink source parent