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I made a spreadsheet that ranks messengers for privacy (privacyspreadsheet.com)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/privacy@lemmy.ml
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I've been working really hard to research and rank messaging apps by their privacy. The more green boxes the better.

I plan to turn PrivacySpreadsheet.com into a place for privacy data on everything from cars to video games. It's all open source too on GitHub.

Not trying to advertise, I just put a lot of time into researching all this, and I want to share it since I think others could benefit.

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[–] 31 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The issue with me is ease of use to use with other people. I've tried Matrix and Session with other tech minded people and it's not nearly as seemless as Signal. I'm just waiting for an app that ticks all my boxes, really looking forward to Signal usernames though.

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  • [–] 21 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Signal really is that better replacement for WhatsApp since the functionality is identical, others would have to force people to get used to the different ui and the options.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago

    Everyone. Everyone. I mean everyone here misses the biggest plus for WhatsApp compared to pretty much every other messenger. Signal is pretty much the only one as "simple" as it.

    We are all too big of privacy geeks to realize what non-tech-savvy people go through with these.

    • Sign up process is dead simple from your phone. It is literally as simple as putting in your phone and PIN. Once you hit the "choosing server" on people using matrix for the first time, you have already lost them. Completely. The exact same thing happened with mastodon and lemmy. People who had no idea about how federation and decentralization were instantly lost

    • Backups: backing up is a process that the users have to do on a lot of matrix clients, or not available. People want to be able to simply move to a new phone by installing the new app, logging in, and being right back with all of your old messages. Even on signal you still have to restore the automatic backup. If you don't have that file, you are screwed. I can't remember if Element will sync your messages automatically to a new device.

    Those 2 things and population are literally the only thing that the average person actually cares about outside of other people being available on the platform.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    Except Signal UI is... Not good. It feels like using a texting app.

    Between the UI and dropping SMS support, I can't get anyone to use it anymore, and people I had using it have moved on.

    Dropping SMS is really frustrating - it was the big selling point I had.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I’m one of those people who thinks SMS has no place in a private messaging app. Signal is the gold standard, and enabling sms merely legitimised this incredibly non private and antiquated messaging protocol.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago*

    And gave a constant reminder to people that something better was right there.

    And put things in one place.

    You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. At least with SMS support I could get people to switch to "this new texting app", and we'd then have a proper Signal encrypted chat. And when they texted someone else, Signal would append the "you could have encryption too" signature, generating a conversation about it.

    The people who moved off of Signal went back to SMS entirely. How is that better?

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    I've been using Matrix for years, but now only as a replacement for IRC. The encryption key handling has always been cumbersome and flakey, and too easily broken by users. Not compromised "broken", but locked out "broken." It's been like this for years, and while the UI has improved, it's still too hard for casual users to confidently use; I've given up hope that it'll ever get to a point where I can recommend it to friends who don't give a fuck how it works, and who aren't interested in spending a half hour figuring out how to set things up - they just want it to work. So many encrypted messaging systems have done this correctly, I dispair that Matrix can't (it's a common issue with all clients, so I blame the design of the protocol).

    Edit oh, I also wanted to say I'd also been disillusioned with Matrix when I realized I couldn't run my own server. That is, I technically could; I just couldn't afford to. Synapse is a hot mess of a server, but it also just pounds on the CPU and requires massive amounts of disk space (over time). Matrix is designed such that all content for channels joined by any user is replicated to the user's home server. It's a questionable design decison, at best, but a consequence is that regardless of the server software, the storage requirements make running a home server cost prohibative. Compared to, say, running an xmpp server, which could be done effectively on a Pi.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    Replicating all chat history + attachments provides a lot of resilience to the network from a node going down, but at the cost preventing to the home lab user from practically hosting a server which just means everything centralizes around Matrix.org, & when anyone on Matrix.org chats with you or your group, that metadata gets synced back to the central hub server once outwardly funded by Israeli intelligence.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    I made the mistake of getting my family to switch to Signal. It works great for messaging, but it has other issues—beyond the typical SIM-required complaint. I hate that you have to register with a ‘primary’ device on either iOS or Android fueling that duopoly (SoL if you are on a postmarketOS or KaiOS or Capyloon phone… or just don’t want a internet-capable phone). Notifications are sent thru Google’s FSM (news 1–2 months ago that of course Apple & Google send all the metadata to the feds) & refuse to support UnifiedPush (thank goodness the Molly fork does). They’re also not too happy to support alternative clients meaning you are stuck with the shitty, resource-sucking Electron client while not having a web client or native or TUI client. And the worst cherry on top is shipping those iOS emoji to Android & Linux …eww.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    • Yeah not having it as a default SMS app sucks. Can't really argue with you there. Perhaps, one could make a fork with it?? Just thought of that now.

    • I seriously doubt any encrypted messenger is going to support OS like KaiOS or non internet capable devices.

    • For unified push, just use molly.

    • iOS emojis...I really don't care, Signal devs have other things to worry about.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    With an FPGA or special CPU instruction set, the encryption algorithms could run on a toaster—which would give access to whatever low-spec handheld you wanted without making it chug to have strong encryption. That also still isn’t covering the future hope of a Linux phone, or someone that just wants to register an account on their laptop.

    Using forks puts stress on other teams to keep up with breaking changes, & 90%+ of folks won’t be looking for forks or be willing to trust their unofficial status. I saw the code for UnifiedPush as a Mattermost plugin & it was like 50 lines or something small which is much less than the rest while allowing users to keep control of their metadata which is a big deal if you care about privacy. A fork for SMS support would encounter similar issues, & now you either need to compete with Molly or copy its featureset otherwise users have to choose, SMS or UnifiedPush. That said, I agree with the SMS situation since it was easy to convince relatives to use this new “text app” where encryption magically came to a chunk of their contact list.

    Saying emoji was the most important was tongue-in-cheek, but it makes the application feel non-native (& I think Apple’s emoji are particularly ugly). You would think at least the Google set was shipped to Android, or—now hear me out—not ship emoji, don’t override the user experience, let the user’s fontconfig display the one they set. Shipping a whole font (or images) for emoji is why the application size is so bloated for a chat app.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    The first two arguments I get. But the emoji argument about not shipping them at all? Yeah if this is going to be a mainstream and easy to use app then that won't fly. My friends, family, and I all use emojis, gifs, and stickers. I'm sure many people enjoy these things as well. All that bloat.

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