Political Memes

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world [S] -3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Yes only 36 children out of 1139 deaths does indicate that it was not indiscriminate murder. Do link the evidence presented that the IDF shelled the kibbutzes, festival and fleeing cards themselves too you conveniently left that out. And that we have no footage of Hamas shooting any children. And the fact that America has aroud 90% civilian casualties, three times high than oct7, even while including the IDF shelling civilians themselves.

The other posts are still completely true. The only difference is that you do not understand where to draw the line.

The line is drawn at not killing unarmed, non resisting people.

If you disagree with my later comments of non-armed IDF reservists not being affiliated with the IDF then you can in no way justify israel bombing any target in Gaza which they suspect as a Hamas member if that person is not actively armed.

For one second do this mental exercise:

If a Hamas soldier went through a Hamas training camp and is a Hamas member on reserve duty but did not participate in the october 7 attacks, is the IDF justified in killing this person when he is not holding a weapon?

parent

[–] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Yes only 36 children out of 1139 deaths does indicate that it was not indiscriminate murder.

This is preposterous. You cannot refute a positive assertion with an incomplete set of negations. Assuming you meant that 36 children out of 1139 deaths does not indicate that it was indiscriminate murder, you would be correct, but the deaths of 695 Israeli civilians certainly indicates that it was, at best, indiscriminate murder of adults.

you can in no way justify israel bombing any target in Gaza which they suspect as a Hamas member if that person is not actively armed.

I made no attempt to justify the IDF bombing Gaza because I don’t think it is justified. The intention of my previous comment is clearly to point out the contradiction between this and your previous statements. Are you a tankie who says most of the Israeli adults killed were IDF conscripts directly affiliated with the army, or not?

If a Hamas soldier went through a Hamas training camp but did not participate in the october 7 attacks, is the IDF justified in killing this person when he is not holding a weapon?

When he is not holding a weapon? In most cases I would say no.

parent

Israeli journalists are finding out more and more about how many lies were spread about what Hamas actually did on oct 7.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world [S] -3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

695 civilians certainly indicates that it was, at best, indiscriminate murder of adults.

With almost 400 IDF active soldiers killed? You can never reach that percentage by indiscriminately murdering people. That is utterly impossible. You don't shoot everyone you see on sight and get a 1/3 active soldier death count.

On the day of the attack there were multiple accounts of adults saying that Hamas did not shoot them. There were most definitely some guys that went rogue and shot civilians this is true, but the amount of civilians truly killed by Hamas has been greatly exaggerated. Most of the bodies burnt to a crisp were likely shelled by the IDF themselves.

Are you a tankie who says most of the Israeli adults killed were IDF conscripts directly affiliated with the army, or not?

As you can see from previous numbers I am never counting conscripts as IDF in my numbers so no. Else I would have said that Hamas only had a 10% civilian causality rate. But I do not say that.

You are right in that my post is incorrectly worded, I have forgotten to include that it's about justification of murdering them. While reservists are trained and affiliated with the army, as long as they are not serving on active duty killing them is wrong if they are not armed and fighting.

parent

[–] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

With almost 400 IDF active soldiers killed? You can never reach that percentage by indiscriminately murdering people. That is utterly impossible. You don't shoot everyone you see on sight and get a 1/3 active soldier death count.

I mean, it is if roughly 1/3 of the locations you attack are military encampments. Which begs the question: why did a “justified targeted [military] retaliation”, as you previously put it, result in majority civilian deaths, according to your own source? Also, it is disgusting to insinuate that October 7 was in any way tactical or justified.

the amount of civilians truly killed by Hamas has been greatly exaggerated

The initial numbers were indeed overestimates, but you have your work cut out for you if you want to prove that the majority of deaths were active military personnel.

parent

May 12, 1997: ANC apologizes for deaths in anti-apartheid fight. But says struggle was justified

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world [S] -3 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

you have your work cut out for you if you want to prove that the majority of deaths were active military personnel.

I'm not saying they were active personal. I'm saying the IDF killed many of them and blamed it on Hamas. Even hostages that were released by Hamas said that the IDF helicopter shot at them while they were kidnapped and driving towards Gaza.

There are multiple israeli journalists that have reported on the IDF receiving orders to indiscriminately shoot at every vehicle they saw since they didn't know what was Hamas and what wasn't. And even the IDF shelling kibutzes with hostages inside.

why did a “justified targeted [military] retaliation”, as you previously put it, result in majority civilian deaths, according to your own source

I would have loved to see zero civilian casualties by Hamas. But they did kill non combatants that remains true. Those didn't seem to be orders from above though. Rather a few soldiers that were blinded by rage.

The African National Congress formally apologized Monday for the killing of civilians by its guerrilla forces during the ANC's three-decade struggle against apartheid."We regret the deaths and injuries to civilians arising from armed actions.

The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country's white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.

But the ANC statement said some of its guerrillas weren't sufficiently trained and "were never thoroughly under the discipline of the ANC."

parent

[–] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

I'm saying the IDF killed many of them and blamed it on Hamas.

I highly doubt the IDF was responsible for more than a handful of the 695 civilian deaths.

Those didn't seem to be orders from above though. Rather a few soldiers that were blinded by rage.

Then roughly 2/3 of Hamas soldiers were blinded by rage. Is it supposed to make me feel better that Hamas is comprised of mostly violent morons with no accountability rather than actively commanding their soldiers to murder civilians? Because it doesn’t, and fuck Hamas.

parent

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world [S] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

I highly doubt the IDF was responsible for more than a handful of the 695 civilian deaths.

We went from 1400 to 1139 civilians killed. The IDF initially counted more then 250 Hamas fighters burnt to a crisp as israeli deaths. Often because they were next to hostages inside Kibbutes.

First the IDF claimed that Hamas burnt those people alive. But it has become clear now that Hamas had hostages bound up and tried to swap them as a deal to get free. Then the tanks shot and killed everyone inside.

Or did those 250 Hamas fighters in multiple locations spontaneously combust? Did they all randomly die themselves while putting people on fire for funsies? There are multiple pictures on the Oct7 propaganda site that we now know have been killed by the IDF from israeli witness statements.

You can guess who killed someone based on how they died

If they were shot by a bullet, probably Hamas with AK's.
If they have a massive blast/burn wound and are missing a part of their body, probably Hamas with grenade or RPG.
If they were completely burnt to a crisp, probably an IDF tank shell or Hellfire missle from an Apache.

Then roughly 2/3 of Hamas soldiers were blinded by rage. Is it supposed to make me feel better that Hamas is comprised of mostly violent morons with no accountability rather than actively commanding their soldiers to murder civilians? Because it doesn’t, and fuck Hamas.

At least they very actively avoided killing children unlike the IDF is doing in Gaza with 11.000+ children dead. And a few adults

In comparison with every other armed resistance against occupation in the past, Hamas has one of the lowest civilian casualty rates. Most resistances just kill everything and everyone. America has a 90% civilian casualty rate in their wars so even compared to western nations Hamas is doing better.

Are they angels? Absolutely not. Some people in their ranks definitely committed heinous crimes and need to go to jail or them. Most of those had their entire family killed by israel so they just wanted revenge.

But from the top down they're not genocidal maniacs that just want to kill everyone. Their plan was attacking military bases and taking hostages and the more time passes the more believable their claims have gotten.

parent

[–] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

I… don’t even know where to start with this. You really drank the Kool-Aid, huh?

You’re bending over backwards to defend Hamas, and most of what you’ve said so far has only hurt your case. I cannot fathom what made you think that comparing the October 7 attacks to universally reviled U.S. military interventions would convince anyone that Hamas is anything more than the truly repulsive organization that it is. That argument is also meaningless unless you consider those interventions to be acceptable, which at best means you haven’t spent much time considering the implications of your arguments.

I also suspect you haven’t noticed the utter lack of pragmatism in your statements. If the October 7 attacks are justified and Hamas believes it should continue such attacks, Israel will not stop until every single Hamas soldier is dead out of a now genuine need for self-preservation. If 67% or 90% civilian casualties don’t matter, then the piles of Palestinian bodies don’t matter either. Unless you draw the line specifically at children, which you previously said you do not.

parent

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world [S] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The only insane takes are the ones you are making. You would be out here condemning Hamas if they had a 1% civilian casualty rate but you have no problem sucking up to the IDF it seems.

There is one party that is blocking the path to peace and it's israel. That has been the truth for 75 years. If you believe that Palestinians should all just lay down and die without resisting up you might as well grow a nice Mustache and put a Buddhistic symbol on your wall.

Palestinians have tried every form of peaceful protest .In the West-Bank there are israeli terrorists shooting children to steal houses and Hamas doesn't even exist there.

“You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.”― Noam Chomsky

parent

[–] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago

You would be out here condemning Hamas if they had a 1% civilian casualty rate but you have no problem sucking up to the IDF it seems.

I have said literally nothing in support of the IDF. What part of my belief that the invasion of Palestine is unjustifiable don’t you understand?

There is one party that is blocking the path to peace and it's israel. That has been the truth for 75 years.

Yeah, no shit the trillion-dollar country is the instigator here. I never said anything to the contrary…

The only insane takes are the ones you are making. *refutes none of my takes*

This will be my last comment. It’s becoming increasingly clear that you’ve run out of steam, and possibly brain cells.