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YouTube’s Loaded With EV Disinformation (cleantechnica.com)
submitted 2 years ago by [M, B] to c/technology@lemmy.world
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YouTube’s Loaded With EV Disinformation::When it comes to articles on a website like CleanTechnica, there are two kinds of articles. First, there are the ... [continued]

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[–] 29 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I am against cars getting more like everyday electronic gadgets. Why do you need a selfie camera inside it? Also who attends zoom calls in it? Evs are notorious for doing so. Not to mention all the privacy concerns over the data these smartcars collect.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    At an EV car showroom the other day, one of the big main focus function of the car that the salesman tried to pitch was "you can browse Amazon or do shopping online on the infotainment system". Also, you have to pay for a subscription to "unlock " the top speed and torque.

    This is not the USA, so maybe it's just a thing in my country.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    Was it BMW because they're awful for that kind of thing. But then again you deserve it for buying a BMW don't you.

    Not that this really has anything to do with electric cars the same thing could be pulled off with ICE vehicles. I don't actually mind my car having cameras and microphones but if my car is going to have cameras I want all the data stored locally unless I choose to upload it to some online location.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Tesla has a game system on its huge touchscreen panel. At least you have to be parked to use it, but that's still fucking stupid.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    I don't like or understand it therefore it is stupid.

    My wife played some Fallout Shelter while we were in the carwash one time. I played some arcade game while in the waiting with my daugher while the wife was inside the store getting some groceries. It's pretty neat. And when we go on a roadtrip next summer it might be nice to play a game of chess while charging.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    It's a car. Use your phone or something. Cars aren't game systems.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    It’s a car. Use your phone or something. Cars aren’t game systems.

    AKA ...

    Bah Fucking Humbug!

    Nothing wrong with playing a video game (or watch a show/movie) in a car while you're waiting for somebody in the store. Doesn't matter which device it's being played on.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    My car is. It's also one of the fastest family sedan on the road, it has almost zero maintenance cost. The future is now old man, sorry if you can not keep up.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    It's stupid

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    It's completely out of your way if you don't go looking for it. For those that enjoy it it is great. Too bad you are so close minded and simple you can not see other people's point of view. How limiting it must be for you.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    I worry about features in cars.

    For example, our Mazda has headlights that turn with the steering wheel (ala Tucker Torpedo's center light). Neat idea and it is a useful feature while driving at night on the rural roads by our house. But what will happen when it fails, and how much will they cost to replace? (I've been told they "fail straight ahead", but who really knows for sure. I'm hoping we get rid of the car before that happens.)

    I saw a pickup with automatic folding mirrors having an issue with them folding and unfolding while the guy was driving. I followed him through several traffic lights and watched it happen a few times. Automatic folding mirrors would be a nice feature on my pickup, but I'd rather not have them fail especially when I'm towing a trailer and be completely blind to the rear-right.

    I've seen pickups with the running bar that folds out. I'm not sure there's much value in that other than "oooh shiny" but if it fails to open while I'm getting out, it could hurt.

    Our Mazda again has several software bugs in the infotainment system. None of these are critical, but it does make me wonder how much testing they did on the software that controls the brakes, for example. Are the brakes going to fail to release someday? I already know the computer has some control of them, because of the auto-hold feature that I usually keep turned off, and because I sometimes notice a slight delay in releasing the brakes when I take my foot off the pedal.

    The FCA Uconnect 8.4 infotainment systems allowed an attacker to remotely take over throttle, brakes, etc. until they were patched. That's an obvious safety issue.

    And that crash at the Peace Bridge last week, it seems very likely it was caused by an issue with the car, rather than the driver (there is evidence the driver was alert and trying to stop, and he swerved around another car that turned in front of him before the crash). Turns out the right-hand drive version of that car had a recall of an issue with the accelerator...which supposedly did not effect left-hand drive vehicles. But here we are with two people dead and a third injured from a vehicle that may have been accelerating out of control through no fault of the driver.

    The point is that including additional features, even if only software, increases the complexity of the system and makes errors more likely. It increases the chances of some unexpected interaction or failure. It increases the surface of a software attack for a potential safety issue. It makes the code that much harder to test for bugs in general and security in particular.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago*

    our Mazda has headlights that turn with the steering wheel

    That sounds pretty cool, but also horrible if they fail as you seem worried about, when they are pointing to the side. I am partial to the little extra lights that shine to the side when turning sharply. If they should fail they will not impact the vision ahead.

    automatic folding mirrors

    Yeah, we disable ours in the winter because of issues when snow and ice builds up and they automatically try to fold in or out and get stuck. Disabling them in the winter time works well. I just use them manually when it is safe to do so. Quite nice in tight parking garages.

    I sometimes notice a slight delay in releasing the brakes when I take my foot off the pedal.

    An Audi Etron in Norway just had a complete failure of the breaking functionality. https://dinside.dagbladet.no/motor/skrekkopplevelse-vi-hadde-griseflaks/80583545 It is in Norwegian but you can right click and translate to english ( at least in Edge ). There is still a mechanical connection to the breaks most likely, but it is hard to break hard enough when the car weighs 2.5 Tons.

    And that crash at the Peace Bridge

    Have not seen that one. That is terrible. There should be complete separation between the software that controls the drivetrain, breaks etc in a modern car, and the part that plays spotify. In my car atleast. I can reboot the screen that shows the map, spotify, and speedometer while driving and the essential car functionality such as breaking, gears and blinking still works with no issue.

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  • [+] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Your smartphone failing doesn't involve 3,000+lbs of heavy machinery flying down the highway, now does it? Your smartphone failing isn't going to kill you or anyone else. A car failing sure as hell can. That alone requires it to have a greater standard of quality and care.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You speak as if there's never been any recalls of cars in the past, before they had electronic and computer systems in them.

    My Ford Explorer trunk door almost fell on my head and killed me. It's tires shredded while driving on the freeway at high speeds, almost killing me and my family, twice. Neither of those had electronics or computer parts.

    I don't think you'll have any car manufactured anymore that's not complex, it's just part of what happens over time, new technology is taken advantage of in the manufacturing of products.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I'm not sure I follow your point here. Even necessary parts of a car failed for you, and almost caused injury. Now people are advocating adding unnecessary parts to cars that may also fail and cause injuries or death.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    I’m not sure I follow your point here.

    I would have thought this was straightforward enough...

    You speak as if there’s never been any recalls of cars in the past, before they had electronic and computer systems in them.

    Your whole comment that I replied to was about faults in advanced/electronic systems as the reasons that make cars unsafe to drive.

    Now people are advocating adding unnecessary parts

    "Unnecessary" is in the eye of the beholder.

    They were very few parts needed to actually make an automobile go into motion and be steerable, but there's many additional bells and whistles that people considered necessary for them when they purchase a vehicle.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    The reason I didn't understand your comment is that your examples just proved my point - safety critical items WERE NOT VETTED correctly. What makes you think the auto manufacturers are being careful with software? They aren't, or are doing the bare minimum. I listed multiple software issues with various manufacturer that never should have happened.

    Look, I'm not a luddite. I like having nav and satellite radio and all of that. But adding a game to the already questionable software development in a car is insane. Cars are a safety critical item and everything added to them should be carefully considered and thoroughly vetted.

    Someone compared it to a cell phone, but cell phones aren't 3,000 lbs of heavy machinery barreling down a highway at 70 mph. A phone needing to reset or whatever is a minor inconvenience compared to what could go wrong with a serious software bug in a car. I'm not sure why people would argue against this, it seems self-evident. I provided examples.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    What makes you think the auto manufacturers are being careful with software? They aren’t, or are doing the bare minimum.

    What, you're expecting the car to explode if somebody plays a Netflix movie or video game while waiting for someone to come out of the store?

    And again, if I wanted to, I can make the same argument you just did (carefulness) about the hydraulics that hold the rear hatch door up, or the tires that were on my SUV.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    But adding a game to the already questionable software development in a car is insane.

    Insane? That's the word you're going to use, really? Seems overly extreme.

    Cars are a safety critical item and everything added to them should be carefully considered and thoroughly vetted.

    I wouldn't disagree with that paragraph in general, but, it doesn't mean not used.

    It's just a computer. Asking for cars never to use computers going forward in the future is a non-starter, that's not how Humanity works.

    Would your concerns go away if somebody was doing the exact same things I've mentioned with a laptop, instead of using the computer built into the vehicle?

    (And in case it has to be explicitly said, I'm speaking towards while the car is not being driven.)

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Nope.

    I don't know how I can explain this better, so I'll summarize.

    • Cars are safety-critical items, being they weigh 3000+ lbs and travel at high speed and can kill people when something goes wrong.

    • It's critical that the software that controls the drivetrain, brakes, etc. be as perfect as it possibly can be because of the first point.

    • Adding more features increases the likelihood of something going wrong.

    I don't understand why this is even an argument. It's common sense. Why would anyone disagree with those three points? (Unless they're the reason vehicle deaths are up...maybe they just don't care and see their car like a cheap appliance and ignore the "potential to kill" factor.)

    Your comments about the hatch and the tires only prove my point: Auto manufacturers already make plenty of mistakes on things that have existed for decades, things that should be solved problems by now. Why would software be any different? They're going to fuck things up there, too. And already have; I gave examples before.

    More complex software means more bugs; anyone in software development or testing can tell you that. These are known facts. What if that game has some bug in it that lets hackers take over the brakes remotely? Unlikely, sure. Impossible? Definitely not - again, look at the Uconnect 8.4 issue in FCA vehicles a few years back; a remote attacker could break into the car and do just that. It's an extremely scary bug. Fortunately they were white hat and FCA actually listened to them and worked with them to patch the bugs, but what would have happened if it hadn't been white hats that found it? Or the manufacturer didn't care to listen, as often happens with software vulnerabilities?

    No one would accept a computer program that runs an X-ray machine overdosing people (which has happened). It's the same thing. The FDA would hopefully never approve an X-ray machine that has Tetris on it, either, for the same reasons we shouldn't accept it in cars.

    The advantages of computer control are huge, we're getting more mileage and more power out of smaller engines all the time. I'm not recommending we get rid of computers in cars. I'm saying it's imperative that any additional features are weighed against the benefit. Playing Tetris on a dashboard screen is not a useful feature in a car that can't be easily handled by the smartphone you almost certainly also own.

    I don't think there's any more to be gained by discussing this further. I can't make it any clearer. Good day.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    It’s critical that the software that controls the drivetrain, brakes, etc. be as perfect as it possibly can be because of the first point.

    No one is arguing this point.

    Adding more features increases the likelihood of something going wrong.

    I don’t understand why this is even an argument. It’s common sense.

    You're making an assumption, an incorrect assumption, and you're arguing a strawman.

    As someone whose career was software development, and who worked on critical mission devices, I'm aware of the importance of the software working properly, and I still stand by my point.

    Nothing you described would cause failure when the vehicles parked and not being driven, just because you're using the onboard computer.

    Hell, even when driven, having the passenger watching Netflix movie on the monitor will not cause the vehicle to crash and kill them (notice I said passenger, not driver).

    Or are you also advocating the removal of any graphic map displays and GPS, bluetooth music software, etc., that's are in computerized vehicles as well, and which is actually using when the vehicle is driven?

    Cars are already computerized. What you are arguing for hasn't been a case for many years.

    I don’t think there’s any more to be gained by discussing this further. I can’t make it any clearer. Good day.

    Before you go, I'd love to hear your opinion on the last point I made, about cars already being computerized and having features for many years, that you would deem as being hazardous to have?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    I have already addressed that point twice. Why do you keep ignoring it? Some improvements are good.

    I understand the game can be played only while parked. But guess what? That software is in the car all the time. It's another place there could be a bug that allows access to vital systems. It's another place where there could be some weird interaction with other systems in unintended ways.

    I don't understand why you keep ignoring that point. A software developer should understand the issue better than most people. I've given example after example of why we should be careful about what we put in cars and weigh the benefits against the risks. You refuse to acknowledge that there might even be an issue.

    I can only hope when this shit fails, it doesn't kill me.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    I don’t understand why you keep ignoring that point.

    Noticed you ignored my whole point of cars already being computerized for many years, and my question to you ....

    Before you go, I’d love to hear your opinion on the last point I made, about cars already being computerized and having features for many years, that you would deem as being hazardous to have?

    I have already addressed that point twice. Why do you keep ignoring it? Some improvements are good.

    I understand the game can be played only while parked. But guess what? That software is in the car all the time. It’s another place there could be a bug that allows access to vital systems. It’s another place where there could be some weird interaction with other systems in unintended ways.

    I don’t understand why you keep ignoring that point. A software developer should understand the issue better than most people. I’ve given example after example of why we should be careful about what we put in cars and weigh the benefits against the risks. You refuse to acknowledge that there might even be an issue.

    I can only hope when this shit fails, it doesn’t kill me.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    You've got to be trolling. I'll quote my comments about that, then I will block you. You continue to ignore the things I say and act like I haven't responded several times. READ.

    Look, I’m not a luddite. I like having nav and satellite radio and all of that.

    The advantages of computer control are huge, we’re getting more mileage and more power out of smaller engines all the time. I’m not recommending we get rid of computers in cars.

    Some improvements are good.

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