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Human Rights Watch says rocket misfire likely cause of deadly Gaza hospital blast (www.reuters.com)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/news@lemmy.world
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[–] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Israel has openly admitted to the crime of collective punishment through the blockade

Have they? A blockade makes sense in the context of a war.

indiscriminate bombing by claiming that anyone who voted for Hamas is a legitimate military target.

These are likely two unrelated points. i.e. civilians are being killed in bombings, and some Israeli official has shared their idiotic opinion.

Bombing hospitals, something else they now admit to, is a crime even if they are mixed military/civilian targets; a claim that Israel has still not proven, by the way.

No it's not? And yes, it hasn't been proven to the point of "Hamas militants have been fighting back in hospital corridors", the evidence has been there. Militants fighting right outside the hospital, militants taking hostages through the hospital, tunnels under the hospital etc.

They've also made their motives very clear about forcing the population of Gaza into Egypt

Makes sense, get the civilians out of the way so they can sweep the strip without killing them. How is that genocidal lol

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  • [+] -6 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Have they? A blockade makes sense in the context of a war.

    A blockade is a war on the entire population, yet Israel insists it is not at war with Gaza and is only at war with Hamas. That means they're telling on themselves; they do not see a distinction between Gaza's Palestinians and Hamas. They've also failed to prove that every element of their blockade has a clear military purpose, which is essential for avoiding war crimes.

    These are likely two unrelated points. i.e. civilians are being killed in bombings, and some Israeli official has shared their idiotic opinion.

    Not "some official" but multiple Israeli officials and low-level government agencies and think tanks. The highest escutcheons of power aren't admitting any kind of connection, but I say there's enough that's come directly from Israel that we can suspect motive and should open a war crimes investigation at the very least.

    No it’s not? And yes, it hasn’t been proven

    Under international law, hospitals are presumed civilian unless proven otherwise. Israel didn't prove anything before it attacked. Therefore: war crime.

    Also? In the case of a mixed civilian/military target, every effort must be made to preserve civilian life or it's still a war crime. Instead they snipe nurses.

    Makes sense, get the civilians out of the way so they can sweep the strip without killing them. How is that genocidal lol

    Well I suppose it's only genocidal if they aren't allowed to come back and I suppose I can't prove that Israel is planning to annex Gaza into Israel (even though it's been stated multiple times from different sources within Israel's government and institutions). I'll retract, with the caveat that it's ridiculous if you think they'd ever be allowed to go home.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    A blockade is a war on the entire population ... do not see a distinction between Gaza's Palestinians and Hamas

    How do you distinguish a Hamas militant from a civilian?

    essential for avoiding war crimes.

    [citation needed]

    say there's enough that's come directly from Israel that we can suspect motive and should open a war crimes investigation at the very least.

    Fair enough. It's not going to change anything in the short term, but that's fair.

    Israel didn't prove anything before it attacked.

    Didn't prove anything to you. The general public doesn't need to be privy to that information lol.

    every effort must be made to preserve civilian life or it's still a war crime.

    Sounds like they did to me. I saw multiple emotionally manipulative posts about premature babies in the hospital when they were running out of power. Nothing about those premature babies being dead. Only about them being evacuated.

    If the most fragile lives came out intact, that says enough really.

    Instead they snipe nurses.

    Really reaching for points there lol.

    I do find it interesting the level of evidence you require from Israel vs the level of evidence required from Palestine. (No I'm not equating Palestine to Hamas. I'm referring to their collective media sources)

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  • [+] -8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    How do you distinguish a Hamas militant from a civilian?

    Investigation, forensics, data and intelligence gathering, witnesses, evidence. Israel does not seem to be concerned with any of the ways it could distinguish militants from civilians, or if it is, they are hiding the evidence from us.

    [citation needed]

    If a blockade doesn't have a clear military purpose then it is, by definition, the crime of collective punishment. There have to be military objectives to depriving people of food, fuel, water, shelter, and medicine. In some cases there are clear military objectives, such as depriving Hamas of fuel for their rockets, but it's much less clear what the military objective of starving the entire city is supposed to accomplish. And no, the trickle of food aid they've allowed in is not nearly enough to avoid mass hunger.

    Israel does not seem to be concerned with proving the military objectives of its blockade either, or is hiding this evidence.

    Didn’t prove anything to you.

    This is the crux of your argument, isn't it? As long as Israeli could, hypothetically, have some secret legal justification for the things that sure as fuck look like war crimes then you simply do not believe war crimes have been committed. My point with all of these things that I point out is that they require some extraordinary explanations that Israel has not seen fit to provide anyone, we're just supposed to trust them.

    I saw multiple emotionally manipulative posts about premature babies in the hospital when they were running out of power. Nothing about those premature babies being dead. Only about them being evacuated.

    Doctors claim four babies died during the raid. I'm sure you don't believe them.

    I do find it interesting the level of evidence you require from Israel vs the level of evidence required from Palestine.

    Well there's a power imbalance, isn't there? Israel is an extremely wealthy and technologically advanced country with nearly unlimited ability to gather information on the inside of Gaza, so it's reasonable to expect them to have evidence. Evidence they refuse to present.

    Palestinians lack almost all ability to gather information or report facts from the ground, so I'm more lenient. When Palestinians are trying to record the truth on phone cameras while dodging air strikes and uploading whenever they're lucky enough to find an internet connection, it's reasonable to expect their side to maybe not have as much readily available evidence. They're very limited by the conditions on the ground.

    Here's what I think, based on what Israeli officials have said and based on Israel's actions: they want to annex Gaza and expel most or all of the local Palestinian population, and they are trying to do it in a way that doesn't cause a regional war by pissing off the entire region and doesn't cause them to lose allies internationally. They have to strike a careful balance to achieve their objective, and so far are succeeding.

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