▲ 1405 ▼ trains rule (feddit.org) submitted 1 month ago by gandalf_der_12te@feddit.org to c/memes@lemmy.world 245 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) why would an individual car “train” that can go anywhere (eg. train tracks on all roads for self driving cars) be shitter than a train that has limited availability and is extremely restrictive in where it can go? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Serinus@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (1 child) Because you have to pay a good chunk of a year's salary for one, store it around your house somewhere, and then when you finally do get to use it, there are a million other people with the same idea and you have to compete just for space in which to use it. And that's before you get to all the maintenance the government has to spend on the paths (and make you pay tax for all that). Oh, and it's incredibly dangerous, so dangerous that it's one of the leading causes of death in the US. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -15 points 1 month ago (7 children) We are talking about an equivalent 'pod/train car', not a car but I'll bite anyway Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I'm sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features 'fuck cars'. Like I said, trains and buses have 2 big negatives: limited availability and is extremely restrictive in where it can go Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don't want to go to either of those I'm in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best But we should invest more in trains you might be saying, and again the question goes back to, why would a train be better than a pod/car that can roll around on train tracks This whole thread took the original meaning and warped it into a circle jerk about trains which is not what the OP was saying permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] Culf@feddit.dk 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) Sure badly built or unprioritized public transit infrastructure might suck, but busses and trains sure are amazing when prioritised, built correctly. Many European cities combine well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure, which together makes it possible to go anywhere at any time for cheap. I think it really just comes down to prioritizing to develop the infrastructure (costs money and requires political will to move away from car based infrastructure). Also I don't think a pod system would solve any of the problems of either cars or trains/busses and would be much more expensive... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) can you name all these European cities combining well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure outside of the netherlands? (where the average person/household does not have a car as they don’t need it) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] iknewitwhenisawit@fedinsfw.app 8 points 1 month ago Public transportation seemed to work well in Brussels, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, and even Edinburgh. Just thinking of the last few cities I was in outside of the Netherlands (leaving out the USA, which is obviously a nightmare for transportation of all kinds). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ permalink fedilink source parent [–] jtrek@startrek.website 10 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I’m sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features ‘fuck cars’. Have you? Trains and buses, when funded, are fine. Millions of people take them every day. I work from home but I used to daily commute by train. Walk to station. Wait a few minutes. Get on. Arrive at destination. I read so many books and finished so many games. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -3 points 1 month ago* (2 children) Have you? sadly yes https://translink.com.au/service-updates/june-july-26 and as mentioned I need my car to get there: Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don’t want to go to either of those I’m in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] jtrek@startrek.website 8 points 1 month ago (1 child) That's not a general problem with trains that proves they suck. The suck is places have been built out for cars with other modes as after thoughts. I live somewhere with much better train and bus coverage, and it makes it easier than driving for the vast majority of trips. The day to day suffering is because of cars. So fuck cars. Fuck the culture that made them primary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent [–] coffee_tacos@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago The facts you are using to support your argument point largely to a failure of the particular transit system currently implemented in your country and area. When a country invests heavily in car infrastructure, cars are easier to use. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 7 points 1 month ago I take the train and the bus all the time, it's awesome. No traffic, no road rage, no anxiety, no danger. I just shitpost on My phone until I'm at My destination. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much Skill issue. Japan, Korea, China all have extremely comfortable and efficient trains. Trains can be quite nice if the government is interested in having good trains instead of making infinitely dollars for the shareholders while spending nothing on maintaince and charging as much as possible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -1 points 1 month ago (2 children) Thanks for mentioning Japan and Korea https://files.ikt.id.au/y0q8ls.webp Japan, South Korea and North Korea would all fit into a space the size of our second smallest state Victoria but that state has a population of 8 million, the combined Korea's and Japan would be 200 million Speaking of large population sizes: We are nearly as big as China but with 1.4 billion, if you took their desert which has fuck all trains and transposed that onto Australia we're actually pretty close in terms of trains and public transport But regardless: One in Four Japanese Households Do Not Own A Car https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00416/auto-appeal-fades-one-in-four-japanese-households-do-not-own-a-car.html Which leaves 3 in 4 who do own a car, so much for skill issue right :) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if you took their desert which has fuck all trains They run hundreds of trains a day between population centers in that desert, I took them to get to Kazakhstan and back. skill issue The skill issue is being able to build efficient, comfortable, cheap trains, which Japan has the first 2, but they could be cheaper. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) I almost thought you were American given your "rail doesn't work, look how big our country is" BS argument. I guess it works for Australia too, though. Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail infrastructure connecting most of the metropolitan regions with each other. Adelade-Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane covers most of Australia's population and is a model case for an HSR corridor, certainly also has the population to support one as well. Add to that a Dutch style multimodal urban model and Australia could be on par with the rest of the developed world infrastructure wise. Perth and Darwin are self contained urban islands anyway, too far for attractive rail but also road connection permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars. Do you have any idea the astronomical cost of public roads and car infrastructure? Imagine if we invested the same amount into a really really good train and tram system. Or, alternatively, imagine if we underfunded roads the same way we do public transport. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (2 children) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars Not 100%, Melbourne kept its trams around and Victoria still has massive car use We're just a huge massive low density country so it's hard to compare to inner western europe permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Yes you're right, I was being hyperbolic. We're 90% mostly-in on cars permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Melbourne's trams are terrible because cars are given priority even though having much lower capacity. The "low density" argument is meaningless. Most people live in metropolitan regions and they are as well suited for transit as you build it. Turns out, Australia went all in on car only design on new projects. Surprisingly that makes anything other than cars unattractive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent [–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Buses are the worst (actually, pneumatic tyred 'trams' are the worst) Trains are great though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) yeah tbh i was being a bit hyperbolic, i don’t mind my train trip to work despite it being slow af but it would take an insane public transport network to service south east queensland, until we find an infinite money glitch it’s only going to be used for a minimum viable amount of very popular trips, eg between brisbane and the gold coast and soon the sunshine coast but for example if you want to go to crows nest from brisbane there will never be a train that goes that way because of low numbers permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 1 month ago* Brisbane was built by car users for car users. If you go to central Melbourne, that's a great place to catch the tram because it was built for the tram. On the other hand, the Melbourne suburbs stink ass because they were built after cars became popular. permalink fedilink source parent [–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Works pretty well in Europe. They have a huge train system that goes all over the place. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago No it doesn’t Notably, as shown in Figure 1, passenger cars accounted for 73.0% of passenger-km travelled in the EU-27 in 2022 – the largest of any mode of transport Public transport activity reached around 995 billion passenger-km in the EU-27 in 2019. This represents a 2.2 percentage points reduction in the share of these modes in the total transport activity compared with 1995. This share reached approximately 16.6% in 2019 https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/publications/sustainability-of-europes-mobility-systems/passenger-transport-activity Cars > Trains permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago (1 child) Because you have to pay a good chunk of a year's salary for one, store it around your house somewhere, and then when you finally do get to use it, there are a million other people with the same idea and you have to compete just for space in which to use it. And that's before you get to all the maintenance the government has to spend on the paths (and make you pay tax for all that). Oh, and it's incredibly dangerous, so dangerous that it's one of the leading causes of death in the US. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -15 points 1 month ago (7 children) We are talking about an equivalent 'pod/train car', not a car but I'll bite anyway Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I'm sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features 'fuck cars'. Like I said, trains and buses have 2 big negatives: limited availability and is extremely restrictive in where it can go Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don't want to go to either of those I'm in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best But we should invest more in trains you might be saying, and again the question goes back to, why would a train be better than a pod/car that can roll around on train tracks This whole thread took the original meaning and warped it into a circle jerk about trains which is not what the OP was saying permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] Culf@feddit.dk 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) Sure badly built or unprioritized public transit infrastructure might suck, but busses and trains sure are amazing when prioritised, built correctly. Many European cities combine well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure, which together makes it possible to go anywhere at any time for cheap. I think it really just comes down to prioritizing to develop the infrastructure (costs money and requires political will to move away from car based infrastructure). Also I don't think a pod system would solve any of the problems of either cars or trains/busses and would be much more expensive... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) can you name all these European cities combining well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure outside of the netherlands? (where the average person/household does not have a car as they don’t need it) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] iknewitwhenisawit@fedinsfw.app 8 points 1 month ago Public transportation seemed to work well in Brussels, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, and even Edinburgh. Just thinking of the last few cities I was in outside of the Netherlands (leaving out the USA, which is obviously a nightmare for transportation of all kinds). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ permalink fedilink source parent [–] jtrek@startrek.website 10 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I’m sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features ‘fuck cars’. Have you? Trains and buses, when funded, are fine. Millions of people take them every day. I work from home but I used to daily commute by train. Walk to station. Wait a few minutes. Get on. Arrive at destination. I read so many books and finished so many games. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -3 points 1 month ago* (2 children) Have you? sadly yes https://translink.com.au/service-updates/june-july-26 and as mentioned I need my car to get there: Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don’t want to go to either of those I’m in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] jtrek@startrek.website 8 points 1 month ago (1 child) That's not a general problem with trains that proves they suck. The suck is places have been built out for cars with other modes as after thoughts. I live somewhere with much better train and bus coverage, and it makes it easier than driving for the vast majority of trips. The day to day suffering is because of cars. So fuck cars. Fuck the culture that made them primary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent [–] coffee_tacos@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago The facts you are using to support your argument point largely to a failure of the particular transit system currently implemented in your country and area. When a country invests heavily in car infrastructure, cars are easier to use. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 7 points 1 month ago I take the train and the bus all the time, it's awesome. No traffic, no road rage, no anxiety, no danger. I just shitpost on My phone until I'm at My destination. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much Skill issue. Japan, Korea, China all have extremely comfortable and efficient trains. Trains can be quite nice if the government is interested in having good trains instead of making infinitely dollars for the shareholders while spending nothing on maintaince and charging as much as possible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -1 points 1 month ago (2 children) Thanks for mentioning Japan and Korea https://files.ikt.id.au/y0q8ls.webp Japan, South Korea and North Korea would all fit into a space the size of our second smallest state Victoria but that state has a population of 8 million, the combined Korea's and Japan would be 200 million Speaking of large population sizes: We are nearly as big as China but with 1.4 billion, if you took their desert which has fuck all trains and transposed that onto Australia we're actually pretty close in terms of trains and public transport But regardless: One in Four Japanese Households Do Not Own A Car https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00416/auto-appeal-fades-one-in-four-japanese-households-do-not-own-a-car.html Which leaves 3 in 4 who do own a car, so much for skill issue right :) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if you took their desert which has fuck all trains They run hundreds of trains a day between population centers in that desert, I took them to get to Kazakhstan and back. skill issue The skill issue is being able to build efficient, comfortable, cheap trains, which Japan has the first 2, but they could be cheaper. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) I almost thought you were American given your "rail doesn't work, look how big our country is" BS argument. I guess it works for Australia too, though. Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail infrastructure connecting most of the metropolitan regions with each other. Adelade-Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane covers most of Australia's population and is a model case for an HSR corridor, certainly also has the population to support one as well. Add to that a Dutch style multimodal urban model and Australia could be on par with the rest of the developed world infrastructure wise. Perth and Darwin are self contained urban islands anyway, too far for attractive rail but also road connection permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars. Do you have any idea the astronomical cost of public roads and car infrastructure? Imagine if we invested the same amount into a really really good train and tram system. Or, alternatively, imagine if we underfunded roads the same way we do public transport. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (2 children) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars Not 100%, Melbourne kept its trams around and Victoria still has massive car use We're just a huge massive low density country so it's hard to compare to inner western europe permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Yes you're right, I was being hyperbolic. We're 90% mostly-in on cars permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Melbourne's trams are terrible because cars are given priority even though having much lower capacity. The "low density" argument is meaningless. Most people live in metropolitan regions and they are as well suited for transit as you build it. Turns out, Australia went all in on car only design on new projects. Surprisingly that makes anything other than cars unattractive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent [–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Buses are the worst (actually, pneumatic tyred 'trams' are the worst) Trains are great though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) yeah tbh i was being a bit hyperbolic, i don’t mind my train trip to work despite it being slow af but it would take an insane public transport network to service south east queensland, until we find an infinite money glitch it’s only going to be used for a minimum viable amount of very popular trips, eg between brisbane and the gold coast and soon the sunshine coast but for example if you want to go to crows nest from brisbane there will never be a train that goes that way because of low numbers permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 1 month ago* Brisbane was built by car users for car users. If you go to central Melbourne, that's a great place to catch the tram because it was built for the tram. On the other hand, the Melbourne suburbs stink ass because they were built after cars became popular. permalink fedilink source parent [–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Works pretty well in Europe. They have a huge train system that goes all over the place. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago No it doesn’t Notably, as shown in Figure 1, passenger cars accounted for 73.0% of passenger-km travelled in the EU-27 in 2022 – the largest of any mode of transport Public transport activity reached around 995 billion passenger-km in the EU-27 in 2019. This represents a 2.2 percentage points reduction in the share of these modes in the total transport activity compared with 1995. This share reached approximately 16.6% in 2019 https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/publications/sustainability-of-europes-mobility-systems/passenger-transport-activity Cars > Trains permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -15 points 1 month ago (7 children) We are talking about an equivalent 'pod/train car', not a car but I'll bite anyway Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I'm sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features 'fuck cars'. Like I said, trains and buses have 2 big negatives: limited availability and is extremely restrictive in where it can go Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don't want to go to either of those I'm in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best But we should invest more in trains you might be saying, and again the question goes back to, why would a train be better than a pod/car that can roll around on train tracks This whole thread took the original meaning and warped it into a circle jerk about trains which is not what the OP was saying permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] Culf@feddit.dk 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) Sure badly built or unprioritized public transit infrastructure might suck, but busses and trains sure are amazing when prioritised, built correctly. Many European cities combine well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure, which together makes it possible to go anywhere at any time for cheap. I think it really just comes down to prioritizing to develop the infrastructure (costs money and requires political will to move away from car based infrastructure). Also I don't think a pod system would solve any of the problems of either cars or trains/busses and would be much more expensive... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) can you name all these European cities combining well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure outside of the netherlands? (where the average person/household does not have a car as they don’t need it) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] iknewitwhenisawit@fedinsfw.app 8 points 1 month ago Public transportation seemed to work well in Brussels, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, and even Edinburgh. Just thinking of the last few cities I was in outside of the Netherlands (leaving out the USA, which is obviously a nightmare for transportation of all kinds). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ permalink fedilink source parent [–] jtrek@startrek.website 10 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I’m sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features ‘fuck cars’. Have you? Trains and buses, when funded, are fine. Millions of people take them every day. I work from home but I used to daily commute by train. Walk to station. Wait a few minutes. Get on. Arrive at destination. I read so many books and finished so many games. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -3 points 1 month ago* (2 children) Have you? sadly yes https://translink.com.au/service-updates/june-july-26 and as mentioned I need my car to get there: Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don’t want to go to either of those I’m in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] jtrek@startrek.website 8 points 1 month ago (1 child) That's not a general problem with trains that proves they suck. The suck is places have been built out for cars with other modes as after thoughts. I live somewhere with much better train and bus coverage, and it makes it easier than driving for the vast majority of trips. The day to day suffering is because of cars. So fuck cars. Fuck the culture that made them primary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent [–] coffee_tacos@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago The facts you are using to support your argument point largely to a failure of the particular transit system currently implemented in your country and area. When a country invests heavily in car infrastructure, cars are easier to use. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 7 points 1 month ago I take the train and the bus all the time, it's awesome. No traffic, no road rage, no anxiety, no danger. I just shitpost on My phone until I'm at My destination. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much Skill issue. Japan, Korea, China all have extremely comfortable and efficient trains. Trains can be quite nice if the government is interested in having good trains instead of making infinitely dollars for the shareholders while spending nothing on maintaince and charging as much as possible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -1 points 1 month ago (2 children) Thanks for mentioning Japan and Korea https://files.ikt.id.au/y0q8ls.webp Japan, South Korea and North Korea would all fit into a space the size of our second smallest state Victoria but that state has a population of 8 million, the combined Korea's and Japan would be 200 million Speaking of large population sizes: We are nearly as big as China but with 1.4 billion, if you took their desert which has fuck all trains and transposed that onto Australia we're actually pretty close in terms of trains and public transport But regardless: One in Four Japanese Households Do Not Own A Car https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00416/auto-appeal-fades-one-in-four-japanese-households-do-not-own-a-car.html Which leaves 3 in 4 who do own a car, so much for skill issue right :) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if you took their desert which has fuck all trains They run hundreds of trains a day between population centers in that desert, I took them to get to Kazakhstan and back. skill issue The skill issue is being able to build efficient, comfortable, cheap trains, which Japan has the first 2, but they could be cheaper. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) I almost thought you were American given your "rail doesn't work, look how big our country is" BS argument. I guess it works for Australia too, though. Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail infrastructure connecting most of the metropolitan regions with each other. Adelade-Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane covers most of Australia's population and is a model case for an HSR corridor, certainly also has the population to support one as well. Add to that a Dutch style multimodal urban model and Australia could be on par with the rest of the developed world infrastructure wise. Perth and Darwin are self contained urban islands anyway, too far for attractive rail but also road connection permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars. Do you have any idea the astronomical cost of public roads and car infrastructure? Imagine if we invested the same amount into a really really good train and tram system. Or, alternatively, imagine if we underfunded roads the same way we do public transport. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (2 children) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars Not 100%, Melbourne kept its trams around and Victoria still has massive car use We're just a huge massive low density country so it's hard to compare to inner western europe permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Yes you're right, I was being hyperbolic. We're 90% mostly-in on cars permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Melbourne's trams are terrible because cars are given priority even though having much lower capacity. The "low density" argument is meaningless. Most people live in metropolitan regions and they are as well suited for transit as you build it. Turns out, Australia went all in on car only design on new projects. Surprisingly that makes anything other than cars unattractive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent [–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Buses are the worst (actually, pneumatic tyred 'trams' are the worst) Trains are great though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) yeah tbh i was being a bit hyperbolic, i don’t mind my train trip to work despite it being slow af but it would take an insane public transport network to service south east queensland, until we find an infinite money glitch it’s only going to be used for a minimum viable amount of very popular trips, eg between brisbane and the gold coast and soon the sunshine coast but for example if you want to go to crows nest from brisbane there will never be a train that goes that way because of low numbers permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 1 month ago* Brisbane was built by car users for car users. If you go to central Melbourne, that's a great place to catch the tram because it was built for the tram. On the other hand, the Melbourne suburbs stink ass because they were built after cars became popular. permalink fedilink source parent [–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Works pretty well in Europe. They have a huge train system that goes all over the place. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago No it doesn’t Notably, as shown in Figure 1, passenger cars accounted for 73.0% of passenger-km travelled in the EU-27 in 2022 – the largest of any mode of transport Public transport activity reached around 995 billion passenger-km in the EU-27 in 2019. This represents a 2.2 percentage points reduction in the share of these modes in the total transport activity compared with 1995. This share reached approximately 16.6% in 2019 https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/publications/sustainability-of-europes-mobility-systems/passenger-transport-activity Cars > Trains permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Culf@feddit.dk 12 points 1 month ago (1 child) Sure badly built or unprioritized public transit infrastructure might suck, but busses and trains sure are amazing when prioritised, built correctly. Many European cities combine well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure, which together makes it possible to go anywhere at any time for cheap. I think it really just comes down to prioritizing to develop the infrastructure (costs money and requires political will to move away from car based infrastructure). Also I don't think a pod system would solve any of the problems of either cars or trains/busses and would be much more expensive... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) can you name all these European cities combining well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure outside of the netherlands? (where the average person/household does not have a car as they don’t need it) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] iknewitwhenisawit@fedinsfw.app 8 points 1 month ago Public transportation seemed to work well in Brussels, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, and even Edinburgh. Just thinking of the last few cities I was in outside of the Netherlands (leaving out the USA, which is obviously a nightmare for transportation of all kinds). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) can you name all these European cities combining well functioning train, bus and cycle infrastructure outside of the netherlands? (where the average person/household does not have a car as they don’t need it) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] iknewitwhenisawit@fedinsfw.app 8 points 1 month ago Public transportation seemed to work well in Brussels, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, and even Edinburgh. Just thinking of the last few cities I was in outside of the Netherlands (leaving out the USA, which is obviously a nightmare for transportation of all kinds). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ permalink fedilink source parent
[–] iknewitwhenisawit@fedinsfw.app 8 points 1 month ago Public transportation seemed to work well in Brussels, Paris, Prague, Copenhagen, and even Edinburgh. Just thinking of the last few cities I was in outside of the Netherlands (leaving out the USA, which is obviously a nightmare for transportation of all kinds). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jtrek@startrek.website 10 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much, I’m sorry for you to hear this in the echo chamber which features ‘fuck cars’. Have you? Trains and buses, when funded, are fine. Millions of people take them every day. I work from home but I used to daily commute by train. Walk to station. Wait a few minutes. Get on. Arrive at destination. I read so many books and finished so many games. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -3 points 1 month ago* (2 children) Have you? sadly yes https://translink.com.au/service-updates/june-july-26 and as mentioned I need my car to get there: Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don’t want to go to either of those I’m in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] jtrek@startrek.website 8 points 1 month ago (1 child) That's not a general problem with trains that proves they suck. The suck is places have been built out for cars with other modes as after thoughts. I live somewhere with much better train and bus coverage, and it makes it easier than driving for the vast majority of trips. The day to day suffering is because of cars. So fuck cars. Fuck the culture that made them primary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent [–] coffee_tacos@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago The facts you are using to support your argument point largely to a failure of the particular transit system currently implemented in your country and area. When a country invests heavily in car infrastructure, cars are easier to use. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -3 points 1 month ago* (2 children) Have you? sadly yes https://translink.com.au/service-updates/june-july-26 and as mentioned I need my car to get there: Trains especially so, my local train would be a 20-30 minute walk away and it goes far south and to the city, if i don’t want to go to either of those I’m in for a 5 hour marathon of a trip at best permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] jtrek@startrek.website 8 points 1 month ago (1 child) That's not a general problem with trains that proves they suck. The suck is places have been built out for cars with other modes as after thoughts. I live somewhere with much better train and bus coverage, and it makes it easier than driving for the vast majority of trips. The day to day suffering is because of cars. So fuck cars. Fuck the culture that made them primary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent [–] coffee_tacos@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago The facts you are using to support your argument point largely to a failure of the particular transit system currently implemented in your country and area. When a country invests heavily in car infrastructure, cars are easier to use. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jtrek@startrek.website 8 points 1 month ago (1 child) That's not a general problem with trains that proves they suck. The suck is places have been built out for cars with other modes as after thoughts. I live somewhere with much better train and bus coverage, and it makes it easier than driving for the vast majority of trips. The day to day suffering is because of cars. So fuck cars. Fuck the culture that made them primary. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago I mean if you are only going around the city sure but even in not just bikes favourite country the limitations are obvious With a total road network of 139,000 km, including 3,530 km of expressways,[2] the Netherlands has one of the densest road networks in the world; much denser than Germany and France, though not as dense as Belgium.[3] On the roads it has grown continuously since the 1950s and now exceeds 200 billion km travelled per year,[8] three quarters of which are done by car.[9] Around half of all trips in the Netherlands are made by car, 25% by bicycle, 20% walking, and 5% by public transport.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Netherlands But that’s a tiny country country that is extremely flat As soon as you get out into a real world the problems are obvious Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent
[–] coffee_tacos@mander.xyz 3 points 1 month ago The facts you are using to support your argument point largely to a failure of the particular transit system currently implemented in your country and area. When a country invests heavily in car infrastructure, cars are easier to use. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 7 points 1 month ago I take the train and the bus all the time, it's awesome. No traffic, no road rage, no anxiety, no danger. I just shitpost on My phone until I'm at My destination. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 4 points 1 month ago (1 child) Have you ever been on a train? It sucks, a bus 10000% more, buses fuckin suck so much Skill issue. Japan, Korea, China all have extremely comfortable and efficient trains. Trains can be quite nice if the government is interested in having good trains instead of making infinitely dollars for the shareholders while spending nothing on maintaince and charging as much as possible. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -1 points 1 month ago (2 children) Thanks for mentioning Japan and Korea https://files.ikt.id.au/y0q8ls.webp Japan, South Korea and North Korea would all fit into a space the size of our second smallest state Victoria but that state has a population of 8 million, the combined Korea's and Japan would be 200 million Speaking of large population sizes: We are nearly as big as China but with 1.4 billion, if you took their desert which has fuck all trains and transposed that onto Australia we're actually pretty close in terms of trains and public transport But regardless: One in Four Japanese Households Do Not Own A Car https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00416/auto-appeal-fades-one-in-four-japanese-households-do-not-own-a-car.html Which leaves 3 in 4 who do own a car, so much for skill issue right :) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if you took their desert which has fuck all trains They run hundreds of trains a day between population centers in that desert, I took them to get to Kazakhstan and back. skill issue The skill issue is being able to build efficient, comfortable, cheap trains, which Japan has the first 2, but they could be cheaper. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) I almost thought you were American given your "rail doesn't work, look how big our country is" BS argument. I guess it works for Australia too, though. Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail infrastructure connecting most of the metropolitan regions with each other. Adelade-Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane covers most of Australia's population and is a model case for an HSR corridor, certainly also has the population to support one as well. Add to that a Dutch style multimodal urban model and Australia could be on par with the rest of the developed world infrastructure wise. Perth and Darwin are self contained urban islands anyway, too far for attractive rail but also road connection permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone -1 points 1 month ago (2 children) Thanks for mentioning Japan and Korea https://files.ikt.id.au/y0q8ls.webp Japan, South Korea and North Korea would all fit into a space the size of our second smallest state Victoria but that state has a population of 8 million, the combined Korea's and Japan would be 200 million Speaking of large population sizes: We are nearly as big as China but with 1.4 billion, if you took their desert which has fuck all trains and transposed that onto Australia we're actually pretty close in terms of trains and public transport But regardless: One in Four Japanese Households Do Not Own A Car https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00416/auto-appeal-fades-one-in-four-japanese-households-do-not-own-a-car.html Which leaves 3 in 4 who do own a car, so much for skill issue right :) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if you took their desert which has fuck all trains They run hundreds of trains a day between population centers in that desert, I took them to get to Kazakhstan and back. skill issue The skill issue is being able to build efficient, comfortable, cheap trains, which Japan has the first 2, but they could be cheaper. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) I almost thought you were American given your "rail doesn't work, look how big our country is" BS argument. I guess it works for Australia too, though. Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail infrastructure connecting most of the metropolitan regions with each other. Adelade-Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane covers most of Australia's population and is a model case for an HSR corridor, certainly also has the population to support one as well. Add to that a Dutch style multimodal urban model and Australia could be on par with the rest of the developed world infrastructure wise. Perth and Darwin are self contained urban islands anyway, too far for attractive rail but also road connection permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) if you took their desert which has fuck all trains They run hundreds of trains a day between population centers in that desert, I took them to get to Kazakhstan and back. skill issue The skill issue is being able to build efficient, comfortable, cheap trains, which Japan has the first 2, but they could be cheaper. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago* (1 child) I mean that's fine but that doesn't answer my original point when 3/4th's of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars Doesn't scream public transport is a winner I also much prefer driving in my car listening to music and not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car is more comfortable and when I want to go down to GYG at 11pm for a cheeky fries run I'm not standing out in the dark and cold in my suburb (not the nicest) waiting for a bus to turn up and then the same thing on my way back, that would be the pits Maybe this works in a big urban centre but the whole world is not a big urban centre permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) 3/4th’s of people are using cars to get around, this public transport paradise is limited to inner city and highly dense locations, and even then 50%+ of people are still using cars They own or have access to a car, but the bulk of travel is public transit. You like not having to sit in traffic? So did the japanese, despite being a major car manufacturer. Solution is to remove as many trips as possible via alternative transit. I would not call Japan a public transit paradise, but there are things they do well we can learn from. listening to music Earbuds. not having little shits on the train making a racket and running around and my car Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? my car is more comfortable You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) Earbuds. Yes they are in my ears 24x7, I do like listening through my speaker though Never seen that over here, what are yall doing differently? Where are you? I bet I can find out pretty quickly you have security teams on your trains at night You must have excessively shitty trains if having to pay attention to traffic while sitting in 1 position can be more comfortable than sipping tea in a dining car, free to stretch your legs or just using a laptop at your seat. It's really not that hard to drive and I would rather get to work in 30 minutes than sit around for an hour, the comfort difference is minimal to me, especially so if it's busy and trains are packed, then nobody is stretching your legs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* Here's a map of most of where I've been in asia, mostly travelling by train or ferry, except in vietnam, where I switch from train to motorbike in Hanoi. I have seen the occasional security guy in China and Korea, never in Japan. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (1 child) I almost thought you were American given your "rail doesn't work, look how big our country is" BS argument. I guess it works for Australia too, though. Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail infrastructure connecting most of the metropolitan regions with each other. Adelade-Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane covers most of Australia's population and is a model case for an HSR corridor, certainly also has the population to support one as well. Add to that a Dutch style multimodal urban model and Australia could be on par with the rest of the developed world infrastructure wise. Perth and Darwin are self contained urban islands anyway, too far for attractive rail but also road connection permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Funnily enough your own map shows how Australia is actually perfectly siuted for extensive rail Yes, it has been attempted many many many times, it's now parodied in our own parks and rec style comedy program: Is A High-Speed Rail Possible In Australia? | Utopia https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo certainly also has the population to support one as well I don't think you are noticing just how sparsely populated we are and how big those mountains are in between the cities permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. It doesn't change the fact that Australia is extremely well suited for HSR covering the majority of its urban population. All with a single line. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) That is exclusively a problem of politcal and may be incompetence. you are free to crique the last 50 years and 10 different government and private enterprise attempts at doing it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Australia apparently you know better 👍 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) You are aware that your link confirms my point, aren't you? Countless studies showing that the corridor is feasible and makes sense, yet not a single project in 50 years, where the government has shown the political will to get serious about it, never mind showing long term commitment. If you want to bring up actual arguments why what is possible in Japan, China and much of Europe is impossible on the Melbourne-Sydney corridor, be my guest. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) i give up mate, if you can’t read i can’t help you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) No arguments? A pity. it seems it wasn't me who didn't read your own source: "Every federal government since this time has investigated the feasibility of constructing high-speed rail with speeds above 200 km/h, but to date nothing has ever gone beyond the detailed planning stage" Even the US has come further already than that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (1 child) You’re confused why it’s not getting past the planning stage? Maybe watch the video again? You’re literally the guy in it :) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8av3knflbQo permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Yeah, thanks for confirming my argument. The video is pretty much bringing up the arguments I'd expect. But it really shows how weak they are when they complain about distances being too far when they are actually perfect for HSR and yes, it is enough if individual relations are close enough. That is how many HSR networks work. But sure, Australia is the only country with mountains and suburbs. And kanguruhs are an unsurmountable issues for rail, but not for highways. It all boils down to ideology. Weirdly enough it was not impossible to build inner urban highways though, which required much more space. But then, unlike road infrastructure, rail is required to be proftibale and that is why Australia remains underdeveloped and its airports overloaded. Add to that wavering back and forth with financial support a generally hostile legal environment towards HSR projects and generally hostile laws to building important large national infrastructure, balooning costs on any infrastructure project. I would not be surprised if more money would have to be spent on bureaucracy and judicial things than on actually building that thing. That is not much different from the US where they need to pay multiple times more per km than in other Western countries with comparable corridors. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Please stop down voting comments you disagree with, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) I am not downvoting for content but debating style. You started off with ad hominem and then added not a single ( or a few) well defined argument but a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. But maybe I am indeed in the wrong instance for that and it is indeed a wrong expectation on my side. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) a video with dozens one liner arguments that cannot be addressed without writing half a book. Because you keep doing stuff like this, don’t bother writing a book, half a book, or even a paper, the idea you can convince me with something that no one in 50 years in Australia hasn’t thought of is insulting to the thousands of people and engineers who have worked on making it a reality Here’s a serious video for you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nEaa3UI5QA and if you go on youtube you’ll find a dozen more that go into it If you’ve got 150 billion in your back pocket let me know and we can get started on this thing permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) You keep ignoring my point but let's try it with a concrete example: Sydney-Newcastle: ~190 km project length, incl. 70-155 km tunnels, covering both sides of the urban Sydney area, all underground. So this project would include one of the most central and also challenging parts of a potential HSR network. Cost estimates are somewhat elusive but I found talk of 90 bn AUD. Now, there is a lot to unpack there. First of all, when we compare that to the current project Lyon-Torino, technically not HSR but still designed for 220 km/h, comparable to the tunnel section in the Sydney-Newcastle plan. It comes also with 100 km tunnel (much of it an actual base tunnel) and 170 km of non-tunnel parts. Price tag: 11 bn EUR ~ 17 bn AUD. Or let's look at the 55 km Brenner base tunnel, designed for 250 km/h, one of the longest base tunnels involving very tricky geology. Price tag is similar 8-10 bn EUR. So even if we compare the rough Sydney-Newcastle plan with very expensive and challenging cross-border rail projects, across the Alps, in other high income, high regulation countries, we are talking about multifold higher per km prices. How come? Likely for similar reasons as in the US or Canada, political and legal reasons. At least in the US, the overhead of any rail infrastructure project is enormous and overshadows the actual construction costs. Extreme bureaucracy, very pro-nimbyism laws and the requirement of minimal or even no negative impact on car traffic during construction. This can be seen when we are looking on the tunnel length in the Sydney-Newcastle corridor. What is commonly reported is on the very upper end of tunnel usage. There is a reason for that and that is also political and legal. While highways were bulldozed through urban areas, rail projects are are rather pushed underground on the entire length, not even using any existing corridor on any of it, until the very end of suburbia and even then. Now, one can debate of course pros and cons of that. There are good arguments for the tunnels, also for speed and operation but it adds a lot of cost. However, even if we don't debate the tunnel length, the costs are astronomically high in comparison to projects in other high income countries, that are not part of the English speaking world. PS: Even though your own video pretty much is all about the lack of political will and the requirement of it to be at least almost profitable. It also can't manage without mentioning the oh so low Australian population density, when that does not matter at all. What matters is the corridor and in this corridor with pretty perfect distances of Sydney to Melbourne and Sydney to Brisbane there is a corridor population of 12 mio. That is perfectly fine for such an HSR corridor. I mean the report is contradicting itself when it is first talking about how Sydney-Melbourne is the second busiest aviation corridor in the world and then later talking about how there is no population for HSR, when the HSR would be highly competitive with aviation on such 3-4h corridors. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars. Do you have any idea the astronomical cost of public roads and car infrastructure? Imagine if we invested the same amount into a really really good train and tram system. Or, alternatively, imagine if we underfunded roads the same way we do public transport. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (2 children) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars Not 100%, Melbourne kept its trams around and Victoria still has massive car use We're just a huge massive low density country so it's hard to compare to inner western europe permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Yes you're right, I was being hyperbolic. We're 90% mostly-in on cars permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Melbourne's trams are terrible because cars are given priority even though having much lower capacity. The "low density" argument is meaningless. Most people live in metropolitan regions and they are as well suited for transit as you build it. Turns out, Australia went all in on car only design on new projects. Surprisingly that makes anything other than cars unattractive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 0 points 1 month ago (2 children) The only reason cars are good right now is because countries like US and AU went 100% all in on cars Not 100%, Melbourne kept its trams around and Victoria still has massive car use We're just a huge massive low density country so it's hard to compare to inner western europe permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Yes you're right, I was being hyperbolic. We're 90% mostly-in on cars permalink fedilink source parent [–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Melbourne's trams are terrible because cars are given priority even though having much lower capacity. The "low density" argument is meaningless. Most people live in metropolitan regions and they are as well suited for transit as you build it. Turns out, Australia went all in on car only design on new projects. Surprisingly that makes anything other than cars unattractive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Zarobi@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Yes you're right, I was being hyperbolic. We're 90% mostly-in on cars permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Jiral@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child) Melbourne's trams are terrible because cars are given priority even though having much lower capacity. The "low density" argument is meaningless. Most people live in metropolitan regions and they are as well suited for transit as you build it. Turns out, Australia went all in on car only design on new projects. Surprisingly that makes anything other than cars unattractive. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago Please don't downvote just because you have a different opinion, it makes you look like a dick permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 child) Buses are the worst (actually, pneumatic tyred 'trams' are the worst) Trains are great though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) yeah tbh i was being a bit hyperbolic, i don’t mind my train trip to work despite it being slow af but it would take an insane public transport network to service south east queensland, until we find an infinite money glitch it’s only going to be used for a minimum viable amount of very popular trips, eg between brisbane and the gold coast and soon the sunshine coast but for example if you want to go to crows nest from brisbane there will never be a train that goes that way because of low numbers permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 1 month ago* Brisbane was built by car users for car users. If you go to central Melbourne, that's a great place to catch the tram because it was built for the tram. On the other hand, the Melbourne suburbs stink ass because they were built after cars became popular. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) yeah tbh i was being a bit hyperbolic, i don’t mind my train trip to work despite it being slow af but it would take an insane public transport network to service south east queensland, until we find an infinite money glitch it’s only going to be used for a minimum viable amount of very popular trips, eg between brisbane and the gold coast and soon the sunshine coast but for example if you want to go to crows nest from brisbane there will never be a train that goes that way because of low numbers permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 1 month ago* Brisbane was built by car users for car users. If you go to central Melbourne, that's a great place to catch the tram because it was built for the tram. On the other hand, the Melbourne suburbs stink ass because they were built after cars became popular. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Grail@multiverse.soulism.net 5 points 1 month ago* Brisbane was built by car users for car users. If you go to central Melbourne, that's a great place to catch the tram because it was built for the tram. On the other hand, the Melbourne suburbs stink ass because they were built after cars became popular. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 1 point 1 month ago (1 child) Works pretty well in Europe. They have a huge train system that goes all over the place. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago No it doesn’t Notably, as shown in Figure 1, passenger cars accounted for 73.0% of passenger-km travelled in the EU-27 in 2022 – the largest of any mode of transport Public transport activity reached around 995 billion passenger-km in the EU-27 in 2019. This represents a 2.2 percentage points reduction in the share of these modes in the total transport activity compared with 1995. This share reached approximately 16.6% in 2019 https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/publications/sustainability-of-europes-mobility-systems/passenger-transport-activity Cars > Trains permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 1 point 1 month ago No it doesn’t Notably, as shown in Figure 1, passenger cars accounted for 73.0% of passenger-km travelled in the EU-27 in 2022 – the largest of any mode of transport Public transport activity reached around 995 billion passenger-km in the EU-27 in 2019. This represents a 2.2 percentage points reduction in the share of these modes in the total transport activity compared with 1995. This share reached approximately 16.6% in 2019 https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/publications/sustainability-of-europes-mobility-systems/passenger-transport-activity Cars > Trains permalink fedilink source parent