submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by [M] to c/meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
 

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[–] [S] 48 points 5 months ago (5 children)

uhhhhh... saying death to any country or group is inherently violent and extremist.

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  • [–] 32 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I told them that it is not good to wish death on Israel or Palestine. Just because shitty people are in power, doesn't mean the populace has to suffer because of it. It doesn't matter which side.

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  • [–] [S] 19 points 5 months ago

    that's also what i told them, but that was enough for them to consider me a zionist and ban me. for a group that larps on about how much they oppose campism they sure do use it a lot.

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Travel writer Rick Steves recorded a taxi driver in Tehran exclaiming "Death to traffic!" in English, explaining that "when something frustrates us and we have no control over it, this is what we say". Steves compares the phrase to non-literal use of the word damn in American English.

    There's definitely a cultural translation issue here

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  • [–] 21 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Tehranian's talking about death to inanimate abstractions that must be interpreted figuratively have an excuse that competent English writers who understand coherent literal meanings do not. We don't use "death to" this way: the right word is "fuck", eg, "fuck traffic!", "fuck Israel!".

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Fuck Israel, I hope the regime collapses. I hate how some people conflate wanting to get rid of a fascist government with wishing death to all the people there.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not sure I'd call Israel a fascist government just yet. An apartheid state? Yes. Genocide regime? Yes. Fascist? Not quite

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago

    What gave me pause was this

    Calling for the destruction of Israel must obviously mean you want to kill every last man, woman and child, rather than simply wanting to overthrow Netanyahu's genocidal fascist regime. Because [bad faith] reasons.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Death to the Republican party!

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    yeah that too

    even though i agree with it

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    But I am saying death to the party, not members of the party. Calling for the Republican party to end doesn't mean that the members of the Republican party need to end.

    'Death to Israel' is not the same as 'death to Israelis'.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    No, you didn't. Death to X is always ambiguous and can refer to anything, that's why extremists use it. If you don't want people to interpret Death to X as violent extremism, then you need to specify

    Like how you already specified.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    So when you agreed to him saying the Republican Party, and before his clarification, which way were you interpreting it?

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Violence

    Fascists get no mercy

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    If you believe this, why then do you have a problem with the phrase "death to Israel?" Zionism is a fascist ideology, and Israel is an ethno-supremacist project of Zionists.

    I should note that I disagree with you. Calling for the death of all Republicans is just as wrong as calling for the death of all Israelis. I despise fascists, but I don't want them all dead, I want them to face justice. Though the ambiguity of the phrase "death to Israel" does not bother me, as I think the context is usually more than enough to resolve that ambiguity.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Because there are innocent people in Israel

    When you have an instance that actively allows antisemitism, such as users using zio- as a pejorative, or repeating antisemitic conspiracy theories such as zog, then the context doesn't help solve ambiguity.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with you partially about zog, as it's an embellishment of the truth (that being that zionists excercise significant influence in US politics, but not a total occupation), but zio is just short for zionist. Using zio as a pejorative is no different from something like MAGAt. Sure, nazis use it as a pejorative against Jews, but it has a more narrow meaning. Nazis who use zio as a pejorative are engaging in the conflation of zionism and judaism, which you are aiding in when you accept the nazi premise that zio is a pejorative for jews, and which Israel benefits from as it enables them to weaponize antisemitism against critics of genocide.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    ZOG isn't an embellishment of the truth, it's a full-blown conspiracy used by white supremacists. ZOG doesn't mean that zionists have a strong lobbying influence, it means that governments are controlled by Jews. Framing it as partially true validates white supremacist conspiracy theory.

    Zio- also has direct origins to David Duke, the Grand Wizard of the KKK, which he uses as a dogwhistle to describe Jews and the zog conspiracy. Neo-Nazis and white supremacists use zio- as a pejorative dogwhistle, don't try to change it into something else, or even use it, that just gives them validity, it allows them to hide behind you.

    The latest chapter in the Chicago Dyke March controversy unfolded late last week after the group walked back its use of the term “Zio,” a pejorative brought into prominence by former KKK Grand Wizard David Duke and often deployed by white supremacists.

    You're also drawing a false equivalence. People volunteer to be MAGA, they don't volunteer to be Jews. I'm not saying that zionist automatically equals Jew, I'm mentioning that ZOG and Zio- are antisemitic due to their history and what they mean. And when those in conjunction with "death to Israel," it looks more like you're using antisemitic dogwhistles and referring to Jews instead of Zionists.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    Why simply allow fascists to dictate the meaning of words without any resistance? This is a repeating pattern, and it causes liberals in particular to be led around by the nose by the absolute worst scum. Like how articles get written about how pepe the frog is a fascist mascot now and all the well-meaning liberals stop using it. And the OK hand sign? Also a hate symbol now, better stop using it. By relinquishing your ability to play an active role in shaping language you give fascists power over symbols and they leverage that into power over culture.

    Pepe the frog is a cute character useful for expressing emotions. The OK hand sign just means OK. Zio is short for zionist, a fascist ideology, not Jewish identity. You insist that David Duke using it as a pejorative for Jews makes that meaning not only real but set in stone, while you deny yourself the same power to create and change symbols.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 5 months ago

    but ZOG and Zio- originated by white supremacists. Pepe and the OK sign don't have origins in white supremacism, they were neutral terms.

    You're not reclaiming anything when you say that ZOG has partial truth to it, or that zio- is a legitimate, neutral pejorative for zionism. ZOG is purely a white supremacist conspiracy theory. Zio- is predominantly used by white supremacists as code to refer to Jews within the same conspiracy. You're not subverting or reclaiming anything, you're reinforcing it.

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