Cowbee comments on What is your opinion on Libertarianism?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

I'm not being absurd, you are. You're defining the mode of production of a majority collectivized and planned economy that was oriented towards satisfying the needs of everyone as a "kleptocracy." This is ridiculous and requires an extreme level of evidence explaining why such a focus was both put on satisfying everyone's needs, and on this "kleptocracy" you claim. You're confusing the capitalists that rose from the ashes of the USSR with the USSR's mode of production. I'm aware that China has billionaires, and again, you seem to be under the impression that Marxism is about equalitarianism and not about gradually collectivizing production and distribution to satisfy the needs of everyone.

Good reading for you would be China has Billionaires. Marxists don't deny the struggles of the USSR and PRC, we do learn from them, what we don't do is dismiss their successes or take liberal perspectives on them like you're doing here.

I'm aware that you consider yourself a socialist, but your analysis is far from that of a socialist.

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[–] MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

I gave you evidence…and you ignored it. I can provide additional evidence beyond ‘54, if you acknowledge those archives.

You believe Marxism allows for the billionaire and political classes in China that control the means of production? Bold.

You don’t “own” Marxism, btw. Most Marxists I know at least acknowledge and criticize the very large problems in the USSR and China. I mean…I also could be considered a Marxist…but I consider myself a post-Marxist because he’s been improved on. I also think we can do better than Marx the man as a foundation - don’t get me started on Lenin, lol. The weird thing is I like Stalin (but Che all the way).

This isn’t zero sum: I’m not saying either is all bad because they have kleptocrats and billionaires. We haven’t even broached the topic of what I think about the USSR and China as a whole (because you’re so hung up on denying their systematic problems in favour of focusing on the positives?) in contrast to what we see in the western democracies (for example) you’re typing as if i condemn them and I prefer the USA, or something…not a thing.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

Yes, you indeed linked a US Federally funded liberal historian that is paid to present a certain view of the USSR. If you want sources on the socialist economy of the USSR, and how it was run, here are some great ones:

All much better sources.

I don't own Marxism, correct. I also study it a great deal, organize in real life with a communist party. I do acknowledge real faults with the USSR and PRC, but I don't acknowledge fake ones. You should read the essay I linked called China Has Billionaires, it explains China's position as an early socialist economy and its process of gradually collectivizing production and distribution. The class that controls the state and holds the principle aspects of the economy in China is the proletariat, as it was in the USSR, as it is in Cuba.

You defining Cuba as more correctly socialist because its rich people are poorer is what I mean by you being anti-Marxist, this poverty fetishism isn't Marxist in the slightest.

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[–] MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

That’s a ridiculous way to frame a public university employee…but I’m just going to declare an impasse and drop it if we can’t agree on facts.

Talk about virtue signalling and purity testing, yikes. Still, thank you for the conversation, I will admit I’m a little amused at you trying to “out socialist” me, but I don’t feel I need to list my credentials in return…I’m comfortable with how militantly virulent I am on the subject of socialism ;)

Like I said: put two leftists together, and they’ll find a way to argue. I’ve been guilty of it too…it is what it is.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

Not just any public university employee:

Financial support for this research was provided by a number of foundations and organizations, including the National Endowment of the Humanities (NEH), the National Council for Eurasian and East European Research (NCEEER), the Archives and Library of the Hoover Institution for War and Peace at Stanford University, the Kennan Institute of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, and the Open Society Archive (Budapest). His first book was Inventing a Soviet Countryside: State Power and the Transformation of Rural Russia, 1917-1929 (2004).

There's a concerted effort within western academia to keep demonizing socialism, and funding is one of the ways the state keeps that going. I provided more than plenty sources given an alternative view. None of this is about me trying to "out-socialist" you, nor virtue signal nor purity test. It's about trying to come to a consistent understanding grounded in reality, from a proletarian point of view, rather than accepting liberal framing of socialism.

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[–] MyMindIsLikeAnOcean@piefed.world 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

Seem like he’s a typical academic. I get it…you prefer to muddy the waters and shoot the messenger then engage with the content. Alternate view to…something you didn’t read? I assure you it doesn’t “demonize socialism”…it just chronicles events according to disclosure/a “data dump” of declassified files. It’s not ideological…it’s for eggheads who don’t want to read thousands of documents. When I read it it just helped me understand the playing field better.

The problems with the USSR weren’t with socialism, you’re missing my message. They were with capitalists corrupting it from within. There’s certainly an argument to be made that too much control was allocated to regional bureaucrats - when targeted positive/idealistic authoritarianism was more appropriate while socialism was in its infancy. But this in the context of just Russia, because I don’t agree with the expansion that created the USSR: my opinion is it created an unmanageably large state with too many “distracting” regional issues that were ripe for capitalists to exploit. Those faithful to the cause were simply stretched too thin and they couldn’t deliver a meaningful improvement to enough people, largely because the guilty regional bureaucrats weren’t loyal to the cause and they created systematic exploitation of the people they were tasked to help. Obviously I’m being unrealistic…just trying to get closer to 20/20 hindsight.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago

You haven't read the sources I linked either. We have a western academic, state funded, and based on your arguments here there's what you believe evidence that causes you to describe the USSR not as socialism, but a kleptocracy. This is why I'm heavily skeptical, because I have read on the structure of the USSR, I know how it functioned, and it was unquestionably socialist. I'm not saying no corruption ever existed, I'm saying that corruption was nowhere near relevant enough to be the base mode of production, because that's an absurd statement to begin with.

The advent of socialism in Russia democratized the economy, doubled life expectancy, dramatically reduced poverty, provided free, high quality healthcare and education, had assured jobs and free or low cost housing, over tripled literacy rates, and turned a feudal backwater into a spacefaring nation in just a few short decades. Wealth disparity, which you seem to place an over-emphasis on, was dramatically lowered as compared to the Tsarist era and the capitalist era. The economy was based on collectivized production and distribution, and fulfilling the needs of everyone.

When you have all of that undeniably true, then statements like "Russia wasn't socialist, it was a kleptocracy" become silly. Of course there was some degree of corruption, every country has some level of corruption. The USSR wasn't a perfect utopia, as the first socialist state there were missteps and struggles. However, it was absolutely socialist, and because of that it delivered incredible results for the working classes.

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