▲ 198 ▼ 'AI' Sucks the Joy Out of Programming (alexn.org) submitted 9 months ago by codeinabox@programming.dev to c/programming@programming.dev 56 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (3 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 18 points 9 months ago (2 children) Why does it have to be AI instead of a purpose built, deterministic tool? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 20 points 9 months ago (1 child) I'd rather use some tool bundled with the framework that outputs code that is up to the current standards and patterns than a tool that will pull defunct patterns from it's training data, make shit up, and make mistakes that easily missed by a reviewer glazing over it permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mesamunefire@piefed.social 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child) I just use https://github.com/cookiecutter/cookiecutter and call it a day. No AI required. Probably saves me a good 4 hours in the beginning of each project. Almost all my projects have the same kind of setup nowadays. But thats just work. For personal projects, I use a subset-ish. Theres a custom Admin module that I use to make ALL classes into Django admin models and it takes one import, boom done. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] Feyd@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago If it's as minimal as possible, then the responsible play is to write it thoughtfully and intentionally rather than have something that can make subtle errors to slip through reviews. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) “Not worth inventing”? Do you have any idea how insanely expensive LLMs are to run? All for a problem whose solution is basically static text with a few replacements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* If it’s 90% boilerplate like you were saying above, how flexible does it need to be, really? If it only needs to get 90% there, surely a general-purpose scaffolding tool could do the job just as well. permalink fedilink source parent [–] codeinabox@programming.dev [S] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Back in the day, I used CakePHP to build websites, and it had a tool that could "bake" all the boilerplate code. You could use a snippet engine or templates with your editor, but unless you get a lot of reuse out of them, it's probably easier and quicker to use an LLM for the boilerplate. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 8 points 9 months ago Easier and quicker, but finding subtle errors in what looks like it should be extremely hard to fuck up code because someone used an LLM for it is getting really fucking old already, and I shudder at all the things like that are surely being missed. "It will be reviewed" is obviously not sufficient permalink fedilink source parent [–] expr@programming.dev 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) All of that can be automated with tools built for the task. None of this is actually that hard to solve at all. We should automate away pain points instead of boiling the world in the hopes that a linguistic, stochastic model can just so happen to accurately predictively generate the tokens you want in order to save a few fucking hours. The hubris around this whole topic is astounding to me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] expr@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) LLMs do not understand anything. There is no semantic understanding whatsoever. It is merely stochastic generation of tokens according to a probability distribution derived from linguistic correlations in its training data. Also, it is incredibly common for engineers at businesses to have their engineers write code to automate away boilerplate and otherwise inefficient processes. Nowhere did I say that automation must always be done via open source tooling (though that is certainly preferable when possible, of course). What do you think people and businesses were doing before all of this LLM insanity? Exactly what I'm describing. It's hardly novel or even interesting. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 3 points 9 months ago (1 child) Is it possible to use deterministic automation for some boilerplate instead of LLMs? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] eleijeep@piefed.social 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) Code is not natural language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Feyd@programming.dev 18 points 9 months ago (2 children) Why does it have to be AI instead of a purpose built, deterministic tool? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 20 points 9 months ago (1 child) I'd rather use some tool bundled with the framework that outputs code that is up to the current standards and patterns than a tool that will pull defunct patterns from it's training data, make shit up, and make mistakes that easily missed by a reviewer glazing over it permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mesamunefire@piefed.social 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child) I just use https://github.com/cookiecutter/cookiecutter and call it a day. No AI required. Probably saves me a good 4 hours in the beginning of each project. Almost all my projects have the same kind of setup nowadays. But thats just work. For personal projects, I use a subset-ish. Theres a custom Admin module that I use to make ALL classes into Django admin models and it takes one import, boom done. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] Feyd@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago If it's as minimal as possible, then the responsible play is to write it thoughtfully and intentionally rather than have something that can make subtle errors to slip through reviews. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) “Not worth inventing”? Do you have any idea how insanely expensive LLMs are to run? All for a problem whose solution is basically static text with a few replacements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* If it’s 90% boilerplate like you were saying above, how flexible does it need to be, really? If it only needs to get 90% there, surely a general-purpose scaffolding tool could do the job just as well. permalink fedilink source parent [–] codeinabox@programming.dev [S] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Back in the day, I used CakePHP to build websites, and it had a tool that could "bake" all the boilerplate code. You could use a snippet engine or templates with your editor, but unless you get a lot of reuse out of them, it's probably easier and quicker to use an LLM for the boilerplate. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 8 points 9 months ago Easier and quicker, but finding subtle errors in what looks like it should be extremely hard to fuck up code because someone used an LLM for it is getting really fucking old already, and I shudder at all the things like that are surely being missed. "It will be reviewed" is obviously not sufficient permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 20 points 9 months ago (1 child) I'd rather use some tool bundled with the framework that outputs code that is up to the current standards and patterns than a tool that will pull defunct patterns from it's training data, make shit up, and make mistakes that easily missed by a reviewer glazing over it permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mesamunefire@piefed.social 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child) I just use https://github.com/cookiecutter/cookiecutter and call it a day. No AI required. Probably saves me a good 4 hours in the beginning of each project. Almost all my projects have the same kind of setup nowadays. But thats just work. For personal projects, I use a subset-ish. Theres a custom Admin module that I use to make ALL classes into Django admin models and it takes one import, boom done. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] Feyd@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago If it's as minimal as possible, then the responsible play is to write it thoughtfully and intentionally rather than have something that can make subtle errors to slip through reviews. permalink fedilink source parent [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) “Not worth inventing”? Do you have any idea how insanely expensive LLMs are to run? All for a problem whose solution is basically static text with a few replacements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* If it’s 90% boilerplate like you were saying above, how flexible does it need to be, really? If it only needs to get 90% there, surely a general-purpose scaffolding tool could do the job just as well. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Feyd@programming.dev 20 points 9 months ago (1 child) I'd rather use some tool bundled with the framework that outputs code that is up to the current standards and patterns than a tool that will pull defunct patterns from it's training data, make shit up, and make mistakes that easily missed by a reviewer glazing over it permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mesamunefire@piefed.social 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child) I just use https://github.com/cookiecutter/cookiecutter and call it a day. No AI required. Probably saves me a good 4 hours in the beginning of each project. Almost all my projects have the same kind of setup nowadays. But thats just work. For personal projects, I use a subset-ish. Theres a custom Admin module that I use to make ALL classes into Django admin models and it takes one import, boom done. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] Feyd@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago If it's as minimal as possible, then the responsible play is to write it thoughtfully and intentionally rather than have something that can make subtle errors to slip through reviews. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (2 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mesamunefire@piefed.social 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child) I just use https://github.com/cookiecutter/cookiecutter and call it a day. No AI required. Probably saves me a good 4 hours in the beginning of each project. Almost all my projects have the same kind of setup nowadays. But thats just work. For personal projects, I use a subset-ish. Theres a custom Admin module that I use to make ALL classes into Django admin models and it takes one import, boom done. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent [–] Feyd@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago If it's as minimal as possible, then the responsible play is to write it thoughtfully and intentionally rather than have something that can make subtle errors to slip through reviews. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mesamunefire@piefed.social 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child) I just use https://github.com/cookiecutter/cookiecutter and call it a day. No AI required. Probably saves me a good 4 hours in the beginning of each project. Almost all my projects have the same kind of setup nowadays. But thats just work. For personal projects, I use a subset-ish. Theres a custom Admin module that I use to make ALL classes into Django admin models and it takes one import, boom done. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Feyd@programming.dev 1 point 9 months ago If it's as minimal as possible, then the responsible play is to write it thoughtfully and intentionally rather than have something that can make subtle errors to slip through reviews. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 1 point 9 months ago (1 child) “Not worth inventing”? Do you have any idea how insanely expensive LLMs are to run? All for a problem whose solution is basically static text with a few replacements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* If it’s 90% boilerplate like you were saying above, how flexible does it need to be, really? If it only needs to get 90% there, surely a general-purpose scaffolding tool could do the job just as well. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* If it’s 90% boilerplate like you were saying above, how flexible does it need to be, really? If it only needs to get 90% there, surely a general-purpose scaffolding tool could do the job just as well. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AdamBomb@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* If it’s 90% boilerplate like you were saying above, how flexible does it need to be, really? If it only needs to get 90% there, surely a general-purpose scaffolding tool could do the job just as well. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] codeinabox@programming.dev [S] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) Back in the day, I used CakePHP to build websites, and it had a tool that could "bake" all the boilerplate code. You could use a snippet engine or templates with your editor, but unless you get a lot of reuse out of them, it's probably easier and quicker to use an LLM for the boilerplate. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Feyd@programming.dev 8 points 9 months ago Easier and quicker, but finding subtle errors in what looks like it should be extremely hard to fuck up code because someone used an LLM for it is getting really fucking old already, and I shudder at all the things like that are surely being missed. "It will be reviewed" is obviously not sufficient permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Feyd@programming.dev 8 points 9 months ago Easier and quicker, but finding subtle errors in what looks like it should be extremely hard to fuck up code because someone used an LLM for it is getting really fucking old already, and I shudder at all the things like that are surely being missed. "It will be reviewed" is obviously not sufficient permalink fedilink source parent
[–] expr@programming.dev 4 points 9 months ago (1 child) All of that can be automated with tools built for the task. None of this is actually that hard to solve at all. We should automate away pain points instead of boiling the world in the hopes that a linguistic, stochastic model can just so happen to accurately predictively generate the tokens you want in order to save a few fucking hours. The hubris around this whole topic is astounding to me. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] expr@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) LLMs do not understand anything. There is no semantic understanding whatsoever. It is merely stochastic generation of tokens according to a probability distribution derived from linguistic correlations in its training data. Also, it is incredibly common for engineers at businesses to have their engineers write code to automate away boilerplate and otherwise inefficient processes. Nowhere did I say that automation must always be done via open source tooling (though that is certainly preferable when possible, of course). What do you think people and businesses were doing before all of this LLM insanity? Exactly what I'm describing. It's hardly novel or even interesting. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] expr@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) LLMs do not understand anything. There is no semantic understanding whatsoever. It is merely stochastic generation of tokens according to a probability distribution derived from linguistic correlations in its training data. Also, it is incredibly common for engineers at businesses to have their engineers write code to automate away boilerplate and otherwise inefficient processes. Nowhere did I say that automation must always be done via open source tooling (though that is certainly preferable when possible, of course). What do you think people and businesses were doing before all of this LLM insanity? Exactly what I'm describing. It's hardly novel or even interesting. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] expr@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) LLMs do not understand anything. There is no semantic understanding whatsoever. It is merely stochastic generation of tokens according to a probability distribution derived from linguistic correlations in its training data. Also, it is incredibly common for engineers at businesses to have their engineers write code to automate away boilerplate and otherwise inefficient processes. Nowhere did I say that automation must always be done via open source tooling (though that is certainly preferable when possible, of course). What do you think people and businesses were doing before all of this LLM insanity? Exactly what I'm describing. It's hardly novel or even interesting. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 3 points 9 months ago (1 child) Is it possible to use deterministic automation for some boilerplate instead of LLMs? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] eleijeep@piefed.social 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) Code is not natural language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] eleijeep@piefed.social 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) Code is not natural language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] eleijeep@piefed.social 2 points 9 months ago (1 child) Code is not natural language. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pennomi@lemmy.world 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent