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Yale professor who studies fascism fleeing US to work in Canada (www.theguardian.com)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/news@lemmy.world
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[–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

I think you believe I and other Canadians are saying no USA citizens should move to Canada. I have heard a few people mention this but it’s fringe.

I never thought this, you made it clear that wasn’t your belief. No worries here.

So it sounds like you are suggesting we should welcome those who hold us in contempt by hiding behind ideology. “Oh you’re just overreacting” say the US centrists.

I'm not fan of centrists, but I don't think requiring people to be leftwing to enter Canada would be good.

So yes, perhaps we should be screening immigrants for their position on our pending invasion. I’m not asserting that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if security protocols are enacted at borders.

I actually kind of think that would be a reasonable thing to ask. But of course I’ll admit it’d be likely impossible to verify. You’d at least filter out the most brazen rightwing US patriots.

I'll even go so far as to say that in some level of my own fleeting suicidal ideation, I've thought about joining the Canadian military on the front line. And I'd be lying if I did not fantasize a little about seeking revenge on my "excompatriots"... quite directly via such a route. Specifically of the MAGA variety.

I'd probably be a bit more Sherman-esque in my attitude.

These MAGA people... they are simply no longer people I'm interested in empathizing with at virtually any level. My hatred of them is at an intensity that is almost certainly irrational and self destructive.

I'd bet there are many other Americans that feel very similarly.

lol well statistically a large number of US immigrants do believe in original sin. However I am pointing out that it will be difficult for someone who was raised in a highly individualistic culture to take responsibility for the society they come from, and for the beliefs they carry forward. So yeah, if you come to Canada, and pretend we are just as individualistic as the USA, you’re going to feel like a hero around all these meek and diminished folk. And that has been happening my whole life, “americans” who move here and talk down while acting convivial and take over all the little ponds they swim in. It’s a type. Usually professional or middle class. Often they are “fleeing” the States… but not really. I grew up with an influx of draft dodgers, and yeah, they were welcomed, but there were problems, and here’s the thing: they are often oblivious to the fundamental cultural differences.

The amount of self reported individualism in Canada vs the US is virtually identical. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2004/01/14/americans-and-canadians/ (under “Values: Similarities and Differences”) this is an old survey, but I would be doubtful the numbers have meaningfully shifted since.

But this is besides a far more interesting point for me that I really hope you will engage with.

That is just a bizarre conservative attitude that works well for neo-aristocracy goals. It’s destructive to other societies and we wish you wouldn’t export that unwelcome shit in your media and migrants.

And here is the most interesting element of the conversation and I'll admit its almost a tangent. That said, I'm disagreeing in good faith.

Its not an “attitude” it is factual. Before you were born, did you get some kind of “create a character” prompt? Of course not.

It is sheer pure reality: no one chooses to even be here or anywhere for that matter. That would make no sense.

Nonetheless, to support the pressure to conform and serve a society that arguably as a collective has a far more significant culpability for one’s non-consentual existence as an individual I find as a sort of absurdity. Individuals should respect each other, but they owe nothing to the society (or parents) that birthed them, if anything society (and parents) owe them an unpayable and infinite debt.

Of course, I also don't believe in free will, and that in of itself complicates my thoughts on these matters.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    It’s great that you want to throw in with defense of our country. You do understand that any USA person who does that would have to check their head for attitudes right? And there would be a high trust bar to vault.

    Regarding self-reported individualism: maybe? Definition and study quality matters. The experience of difference is markedly clear, especially to those of us with family on both sides of the border.

    And also, ideology is like halitosis, it’s always someone else’s problem, eh?

    Responsibility for society starts at young adulthood, which is a fuzzy line because it varies per person. Bizarre that you would try to dissociate being a member of a culture and society without acknowledging participation and maintenance and responsibility… but very “American.” It capitulates to authority.

    I keep seeing a response to words like “welcoming” as though it is a binary, for instance. Are you writing as though there’s welcome and deny, and that’s it? Fox News does this sleight of mind, for instance, reducing things to absolutes. It’s how single issue voters are created. Question it.

    I once documented a youth conference of diasporic Black students from Windsor, Detroit, and Toronto. As director and editor I had to pay attention closely to the discussion. Some amazing things became clear: fundamental differences in identity and worldview. In particular, the Canadian youth got where the USA youth were coming from, but not the reverse, at least during the discussions.

    It was more than about identity, it was about nuance and complexity. Something just made it really hard for the Detroit folks to think in terms more than black white latino asian and a few others, as well as simplifying broader topics. Looking for easy conclusions. The Toronto folk counted over 100 languages spoken at their school and thought in terms of ethiopian, africanadian, igbo, jamaican, trini, etc. The Windsor folk were like, “yeah that and we’re distinct yet linked, our local history explains a lot, and we have to work together across divisions.” Social complexity is pretty natural in canadian discourse.

    This, this is one of the difficult things to explain across the border. It’s one of the key things we are worried most about losing in an annexation. And like most colonial relationships, the understanding generally goes one way.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    You do understand that any USA person who does that would have to check their head for attitudes right?

    Attitude as in instability or propensity to commit war crimes against MAGA people? I might fail that check admittedly.

    Responsibility for society starts at young adulthood, which is a fuzzy line because it varies per person. Bizarre that you would try to dissociate being a member of a culture and society without acknowledging participation and maintenance and responsibility…

    I'm not "trying to dissociate" anything of the sort. I've thought and read and debated about about the nature of human existence for an abnormally long time and what I've told you is simply a major piece of my current conclusions.

    If anything I'm ravenously seeking out someone to convince me my ideas are wrong. Partly because when someone does that it to me it means my beliefs become just that much more refined and accurate. Not enough people are willing to challenge their own beliefs or actively engage in defending them. They attach their ideology to their very identity and react emotionally to counters to their beliefs. I don't do that or respect that. My loyalty is to reality, not my sense of belonging or identity.

    Another reason is a lot of my own beliefs about life and existence (and for instance the current political realities of the country I live in) are quite unpleasant and many of them I'd like to be rid of if I could find some counters convincing enough to break from them I'd honestly be relieved.

    If anything my lack of dissociation is making me cripplingly depressed and angry and probably part of why I'm on track for a high blood pressure diagnosis.

    but very “American.” It capitulates to authority.

    I can assure you that my specific beliefs are not the norm for Americans. Most Americans do not have any desire to think deeply about their own ideology at all, and even those that talk of ideology often just embrace some well developed "counter cultural" identity and call it their ideology without much further analysis.

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