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You don’t hate women and feminism. You hate capitalism. (makemenemotionalagain.substack.com)
submitted 2 years ago by [M] to c/mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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[+] -9 points 2 years ago (1 child)

You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations

This is where we disagree, and it's not just the words that we use. Women are greedy, too. They like the nice things men buy them. They don't care about the true cost of consumerism because they've been conditioned to ignore it.

It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.

This is why I agree with you insomuch as women aren't able to think for themselves. I don't put that expectation on them. People richer than us do. Even though I'm able to rise above their influence, the average person cannot. This goes doubly-so for women because women have been encouraged for generations to function as one entity as much as possible.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    That's still not disagreeing with me though. You are agreeing fundamentally with what I am saying, but you don't understand what the words mean. You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by "patriarchy".

    The only difference in what we are saying is that you don't know the big fancy words and theory backing it up and instead replace it with anti women language that you have picked up and understood. At the core, past the language and operating on pure ideas, we are saying the same thing.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by “patriarchy”.

    Side note that's why I loathe that word. The concept, roughly Butler forwards, makes perfect sense but the term is atrocious because it right-out invites misunderstanding, as in, if you take a dictionary and look up the components you get nowhere close to the "normative force wafting through overall society" thing but plain "rule of fathers", if even that, plenty of people misunderstand it as "rule of men". I know it's due to history and not deliberate obscurantism but it still sucks. Something like "the spirit of oppression" comes way closer to the modern definition, including the animist metaphysics it invokes.

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  • [+] -10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

    It is disagreeing, though. You're saying that women can't rise above the expectations put on them by "the patriarchy." I agree that women, on average, cannot think for themselves.

    It's not the fault of the patriarchy that women like expensive things and are willing to reward males who buy them things with sex. Women themselves encourage this behavior.

    Trying to absolve them of any responsibility is just contributing to the culture of treating women like children.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That's not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It's called feminism.

    Wrong, you just described patriarchy. You do not know what that word means. You understand it as "men good, women bad". You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women's expectations of men and men's expectations of women.

    Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. However when discussing the way a group of people, especially such a wide one as half the population, you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself. Because to do so builds stereotypes and reinforces false consciousness related to that group. In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That’s not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It’s called feminism.

    No, it's not. It's called autonomy.

    “men good, women bad”

    Wrong. I never said nor implied anything like this.

    You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women’s expectations of men and men’s expectations of women.

    It's an aspect of the patriarchy, but it stems from consumerism and greed.

    you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself.

    Wrong. I'm telling you uncomfortable truths so you have to plug your ears and deny.

    Because to do so builds stereotypes

    No. Seeing their actions builds the stereotype. If they can't rise above other people's expectations, then it coincidentally reinforces the idea that they can't think for themselves.

    In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.

    In your case, you're desperate to prove that "feminism is the solution and the patriarchy is the problem" when the real issue is greed and consumerism.

    We can just agree to disagree here. If you're going to be pretentious and patronizing by saying "I agree but I don't understand the words being used," then just re-read this comment.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing. You do not know what those words mean. You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.

    Except it's not silly. It's extremely common. That's why there's a whole academic theory about it. False consciousness. It's a very hard thing to break yourself out of. It's kinda like alcoholic rehab. The first step is admitting you are in it and beginning to deconstruct it.

    Our entire society is built in reinforcing these false consciousness. It is very very difficult to break them. As I said in another thread to you. I hope this is a seed of words and ideas that hopefully someone who speaks your language better will water and sprout into understanding.

    I'm sorry that this is all sounding patronizing and elitist and whatever else that makes you feel small. I genuinely do. Please take everything I have said how I intended it. With love and hope and empathy and understanding.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    Hmm, i think you're too ardent in your beliefs. Their point is that there are women who are aware that what they're doing is leveraging their position to obtain material possessions. This kind of thing isn't specific to any gender or ideology.

    Would you say that it is because of patriarchy that a man (who can do it) leverages his looks for material gain? It's just greed and opulence.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 years ago

    Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing.

    They are related, but not the same. We are not saying the same thing.

    You do not know what those words mean.

    Ironic, considering you seem to literally believe capitalism and patriarchy mean the same thing.

    You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.

    I take it as patronizing because it is and I've dealt with your kind before.

    I am going to have to block you now, though, without reading the rest of your drivel.

    Re-read my previous comments if you have any further misunderstandings or still believe we are in agreement. We are not and you are being willfully ignorant if you think otherwise.

    You may have the last word. I can tell you're dying for it.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Women themselves encourage this behavior.

    The women whose minds are also enslaved to the patriarchy encourage this. Sounds like we're saying the same thing

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  • [–] -3 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Not really. I'm referring to women enjoying the benefits they get from having others do the work for them.

    Trying to argue that they can't enjoy this without some overarching control is just reinforcing the idea that women can't think for themselves.

    Good job doing your part to reinforce the idea that women should be treated like children.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Interesting perspective. I think we're arguing from two different viewpoints here. Mine is that the women I'm referring to have a sense of entitlement to male servitude (the sole cause of this i proclaim to be patriarchy) while yours seems to be they don't necessarily feel entitled, but are just "enjoying the spoils of war" so to speak.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Yes, exactly.

    Although I will agree with you that there are women out there that feel as though they are 'owed' something due to the historical treatment of women.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Then I'm inclined to agree with you.

    How do you think we can solve the consumerism and greed problem then? I'm guessing just axe capitalism?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    It's a cultural problem and it requires cultural solutions.

    We need to value different things, and that's purposefully vague because it applies to so many aspects of our lives.

    I've recently been thinking of it as a 'war on modesty,' which is what we need to see value in in order to fight back against consumerism.

    Do more with less. Appreciate what we have. Those kinds of things.

    It's unfortunate that these basic suggestions could solve such major problems, but I believe that's how far we've strayed from the truth.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    Yeah it's a very sensationalist solution, and quite utopian almost. Society praises individuals with the means to obtain material possessions at the drop of a hat. You also have figures like Andrew Tate who preach that it should be one's goal. I think we're far past that point of culture shift as consumerism seems to be ingrained in our nature at this point.

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