326
Why has the world started to mine coal again? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
312 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

With climate change looming, it seems so completely backwards to go back to using it again.

Is it coal miners pushing to keep their jobs? Fear of nuclear power? Is purely politically motivated, or are there genuinely people who believe coal is clean?

Edit, I will admit I was ignorant to the usage of coal nowadays.

Now I'm more depressed than when I posted this

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 57 points 2 years ago (3 children)

It never stopped. Hasn’t even really slowed down.

People need electricity. Renewables are great, but they don’t provide for the full generation need. Coal and natural gas power generation will continue unabated until a better (read: lower price for similar reliability) solution takes their place.

In my opinion, fossil fuel generation won’t take a real hit until the grid-scale energy storage problem is solved.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] 11 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Hasn’t even really slowed down.

    I think thats... not wrong per say, but somewhat misleading. Coal consumption has been steady worldwide for the last decade despite the population going up a whole billion, and as the average persons energy usage has gone up (largely as a result of growing quality of life in developing nations).

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago

    Absolutely. Coal has remained consistent as demand for power has risen steadily. Renewables are growing, but remain a tiny slice of the whole generation picture.

    Natural gas has become a cheap and reliable replacement for coal over the last 10-15 years as it’s become less expensive to transport. Many coal plants have been converted, even. So as demand has risen, it’s natural gas, not renewables, that is filling the gap.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    what is preventing renewables from providing full generation need?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] 16 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Storage. Coal, natural gas, and nuclear generate power regardless of weather, day and night.

    Solar generates plenty of electricity (with enough panels installed), but it slows down significantly under cloudy skies and stops entirely at night.

    Wind generates plenty as well…unless the wind stops blowing.

    The grid needs power all the time, not just when it’s sunny and windy. For renewables to actually compete, the excess power they generate during sunny and windy times needs to be stored for use when it’s dark and still.

    As much as we applaud lithium batteries, our energy storage technologies are abysmally inefficient. We’re nowhere near being able to store and discharge grid-scale power the way we’d need to for full adoption of renewables. The very best we can do today (and I wish I were kidding) is pump water up a hill, then use hydroelectric generators as it flows back down. Our energy storage tech is literally in the Stone Age.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Don't underestimate the battery potential of gravity!

    According to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#:~:text=The%20round%2Dtrip%20energy%20efficiency,sources%20claiming%20up%20to%2087%25. The round-trip efficiency of pumped storage is 70-80%, that's pretty darn good for cheap mass-storage. There's not much more to gain there.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago

    Pumped water is about the only practical gravity battery, but it has limitations.

    1. It can only be built in a few geographical locations.
    2. This tends to limit it's overall capacity unless you're Norway or Switzerland.
    3. It requires flooding an area to make a storage lake and so has a high environmental impact.
    4. Building power stations inside mountains is difficult and expensive.

    So it's great stuff, but I don't think it's going to be the backbone of any storage solution we have.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    It works very well, not disputing that.

    But, like geothermal power generation (which is also very good), it’s extremely dependent on location. Most populated areas don’t have the altitude differential (steep hills) and/or water supply to implement pumped hydro storage.

    Where it can be used, it should be (and largely is - fossil fuel generation does better with some storage as well, since demand is not consistent), but it’s hardly something that can be deployed alongside solar and wind generators everywhere.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    With some high voltage long-range transmission lines you could viably do it pretty much everywhere. Just requires some cooperation.

    Yes it will slightly reduce efficiency over very long distances, but it's not unreasonable amounts.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    Long range transmission of AC power is limited to about 40 miles. DC can be transmitted much farther, but the infrastructure is substantially more expensive (because it’s more dangerous), so that’s only done for extreme need.

    We aren’t getting away from having many power generators all over the place, so one location-dependent storage solution isn’t going to solve all the problems.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 9 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Cost, resources availability, and fluctuations in supply.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    my energy bill right now is like a new solar panel a month. what resources do we not have, and are you familiar with pumped storage? spoilers, we already have renewable stable energy supply

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    The truth is, we do have enough resources. We just care more about the economy and profit than our future climate (which will also strongly affect the economy, but that's in the future so...).

    If we actually valued the climate as much as we ought to, switching fully to renewables would be a bargain.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago*

    We dont' really care about the economy, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this boom-bust shit and we'd have a better planned economy that would ensure there wasn't a perpetual under-class of starving people in every industrialized nation.

    Our Government DO care about making sure their donors get paid though.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Everything has a cost of course, building solar panel requires a significant amount of precious metals, which may or may not be easily accessible or affordable depending on the political climate between countries who mine vs the countries who needs the resources.

    And the production of solar panel does create some toxic leftovers which needs to make handled appropriately. Not saying they're a bad alternative and they're definitely before than fossil fuel or coal, just needs to consider the cost and the impact of everything.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    building solar panel requires a significant amount of precious metals

    Mmm, no, no they dont. Solar panels are primarily made from silicon. Sand.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    They also need

    • Copper
    • Cobalt
    • Nickel
    • Lithium
    • Chromium
    • Zinc
    • Aluminium

    and some others rare-earth elements, as well as some platinum-group metals. The current photocell chemistry we use is quite complex.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)
  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in-clean-energy-transitions/mineral-requirements-for-clean-energy-transitions

    and even then, solar panels are only one part of the whole system, since the source of energy fluctuates significantly.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Time. People can see past the storage issue when it's not that big of an issue.

    Interconnectors and curtailment at peak output are economically optimal. The renewable transition doesn't seem to be slowing.

    The renewable boom has only been going for about 10 years. Give it another 10-20 and the world will look drastically different in one generation.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Oh itll look different in 20 years alright, with how slow this is going.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    that's uh, a 5% increase over 20 years for US. Another 20 years and renewables might make up 20% of our power! With skyrocketed energy demands for AC keeping us alive from the hellscape outside.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •