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[–] 9 points 2 years ago* (3 children)

The intent is to say something that will antagonise Trump. The intent is not to demean women.

Attacking someone who shares your moral platform because you purposefully misinterpret their words to suit a separate agenda is friendly fire.

Transphobia and misogyny are not to be tolerated, do you really think that someone attacking turnip (autocorrect, I’m leaving it) online doesn’t share your views on this?

Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    I think you're right about all this. Just wanted to add that this joke is (a little) funny because it simultaneously points out that trump and Elon are misogynistic and kind of gleefully watches them squirm about it, since you know they are also reading it in their own social media feeds.

    If someone is offended by this joke, I would agree it's kind of hypersensitive but more importantly they are missing what the joke means at all. They noticed concepts they get upset about and not really understood how the concepts are being used.

    Tldr; This joke is funny because it points out these assholes' bigotry and taunts them with it. It kind of trusts the audience to see that the entirety of the joke is inherently mocking someone for being a bigot.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Frankly I think you’ve put it better than I did.

    That’s exactly what the joke is about.

    The punchline is: ‘they are bigots’, not: ’fuck trans people and women’.

    Appreciate you.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    Haha I'll take that encouragement! I appreciate you speaking up too. I have tried this kind of pushback before and it's too easy to get mobbed with accusations of being an awful person, so I tried to tread lightly to avoid a completely pointless hatefest. I think it also speaks to Lemmy and maybe my blocklist that that didn't happen here. On reddit I'm 99% sure if people read what we wrote we'd get flooded inboxes saying we're just trying to justify transphobia/misogyny/etc.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Why are trans people's feelings less important than feelings of people making jokes online?

    I don't want to be arguing here either, that's why I'm politely letting folks know that these sort of jokes may alienate their allies. You don't have to do anything with that information if you don't want to! Don't engage with this at all, and feel free to let me know what material good you've done to fight for trans rights in the time saved, will you?

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    They are not just jokes. People posting these things are doing so specifically to antagonise the right.

    I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.

    I have chosen to engage in this just like you chose to deal with the blowback when you posted it.

    All I have done to “fight for trans rights” is to speak out when I can, challenge bigotry as I am challenging you right now, stand up and be counted at queer marches/events and raise a daughter who took the only trans kid in her high school to prom.

    You don’t know my life and that isn’t the discussion. Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago*

    Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.

    I'm also in favor of the viewpoint that the "First Lady Trump" joke was fine. Just felt the need to comment on the last point; I've had that sentiment before too, but I've also seen danger in the idea that "Because my intentions were positive, I shouldn't be criticized." That's been a defense used by bigots, too. eg, Trump throwing paper towels to disaster victims (even though he certainly didn't have to take time out of his day to throw paper towels, gee, how nice he is!)

    I'd like to hope that in the past 30 days I've never said anything racist/bigoted - but I'd also acknowledge the possibility that despite my positive intentions, I may have. It's only important because these days very few people think themselves to be bigots. Think about the type of person most likely to say things like "I'm not racist!"

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    I’m telling you that your concern trolling is alienating allies.

    And they are telling you that your lack of empathy is alienating a different set of allies. Those who you seem to claim to be allied with.

    Stop deflecting and learn to focus on intent.

    I mean, this is 101 stuff.

    https://www.healthline.com/health/intent-vs-impact

    If your impact doesn’t match your intent

    Ever found yourself saying, “But that’s not what I meant”?

    You aren’t alone. Everyone tends to measure their responses based on their own interpretation of a situation, meaning that unintentional harm is bound to happen — none of us are above an accidental “ouch.”

    If someone discloses that you hurt or offended them, the remainder of your relationship, whether it’s professional, romantic, or platonic, can depend on how you handle the situation.

    Here’s how to get things back on track:

    • Listen with the goal of understanding where they’re coming from, not with the goal of defending yourself. It can help to use the active listening technique of repeating back exactly what you hear.

    • Center their feelings, not yours. It’s normal to feel a little prickly when someone tells you that you did something wrong, and you disagree. But take a beat and a deep breath, and know that you can talk about your feelings later.

    • Genuinely apologize or acknowledge the impact that your actions had on them. Steer clear of “I’m sorry if,” “I’m sorry you,” or “I’m sorry but,” as these all lack accountability and put the blame on the one who was hurt. A simple “I’m sorry for doing that, and I’ll do better next time” can go a long way.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (2 children)

    Stip trying to police speech among your allies. Focus on intent. Stop with the nonsense infighting we are at war rn.

    Isn't that what you're doing by telling trans people to put up or shut up when 'allies' use transphobic/misogynist insults against 'enemies'

    How are we supposed to know that we won't just become the next acceptable target for misogynistic/transphobic abuse if/when we end up on liberals 'enemies' list?

    Trump and Elon are buffoons, it's not hard to mock them without tolerating misogyny to do so.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Well the truth is as the world goes down the shitter you'll lose allies anyway. People don't care about these issues when they have to worry about shelter and food.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    I don't think the people being misogynistic to some rich assholes on twitter are worried about shelter or food.

    That said I also don't see how the fact that fair-weather allies will eventually abandon their positions when things get hard is a case against having standards for behavior in the here and now.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    It isn’t tolerating misogyny, it’s pointing out misogyny and ridiculing misogynists.

    It’s OK if you don’t like how that’s being done, and it’s OK if you can’t understand the nuance but policing my speech unchallenged is not what is going to happen.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    I think I got the nuance behind 'bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?'.

    I'm trans, and like actually hate these people, they deserve ridicule. However, if I'm willing to tolerate bigotry on my behalf towards people that are in some out-group, there's no guarantee that some day I won't be among that out-group and subsequently targeted by that type of bigotry. Do you understand the issue I'm raising?

    I can't tolerate people misgendering Caitlen Jenner or Blair white because while they suck, it only contributes to an environment where that type of insult is then considered acceptable.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

    I think I got the nuance behind 'bigoted man I disagree with is actually a woman because women amirite?'.

    Nope.

    It goes like this: ‘bigoted man is bigoted because this will aggravate his orange tits. If bigoted man was not bigoted it would not be possible to rip on him like this.’

    Put another way: ‘I am a bigot, said John.’

    If that doesn’t clarify it then I’m out of patience to explain further.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That's cool I don't need any more explanations.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    That’s cool I don’t need hear any more explanations.

    Edit: worth noting that nowhere in this thread does this user talk about how language they don't like feels to them. They just repeatedly state what it "is" condescendingly. And then they intentionally troll people pushing back on that. Funny enough, they accidentally confirmed they are trolling by admitting they are an ESL but then insisting on what expressions mean and sealioning me about them.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    I made the mistake of trying to converse with that user. Their history doesn't indicate they are a full time troll, but on these kinds of topics, they certainly are. And I remember them also defending infamous banned troll UniversalMonk on multiple occasions, if you remember that guy.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You're the type to get weirdly sexual and homophobic when it's people you disagree with. Not really interested in what you have to say tbh.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    You’re the type to get weirdly sexual and homophobic when it’s people you disagree with. Not really interested in what you have to say tbh.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    you don't seem like you handle people disagreeing with you well. you've already called me schizophrenic because I had an issue with your history of homophobic comments, only to be like "well they're people I don't like politiclly so it's okay"

    that was my original point, so thank you for demonstrating the behavior I guess

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Clicking on your moderation history is not stalking, it's literally right in the drop-down next to block user for me, and that was all right the top of your history.

    spoiler

    All I said was that I don't like seeing misogynist, homophobic transphobic, or sexual insults being used against even my enemies, because that's not behavior I would want to condone in my allies, or in spaces I participate in.

    You seem to have an enormous chip on your shoulder, judging from your response to a trans woman giving her opinion on the matter. Your response was saying I'm mentally ill and a stalker for pointing out your past homophobic and aggressive behavior that's publicly visible and extremely obvious.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    If making up conspiracies helps you cope with your life that's certainly an approach people take.

    I spoke up up to say I didn't like seeing 'allies' using bigoted language and you immediately got defensive which is a huge tell.

    You just seem like a centrist extremist looking for an excuse to be homophobic.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Idk what your beef is with that poster but if you provide some background maybe I'll understand what you're referencing.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    If bigoted language is common in the spaces you frequent that says a lot about what your lived experience has been.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    It won’t drive me to the right exactly,

    I get the feeling that you're already there, you just prefer a different aesthetic from the red hats.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Reacting defensively to earnest criticism speaks volumes, I'm afraid.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Usually when it's pointed out to me that I'm reacting defensively I take a moment to think about why that is, maybe you should do the same.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)
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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

    “Sucking someone’s dick” is often used as a way to refer to someone sucking up to someone else in a way that isn’t explicable unless there were a secret relationship

    why would you immediately assume you understand its usage in every case?

    so why is sucking dick a thing requiring a secret relationship?

    also it seems like a specifically gendered expression, why wouldn't you say "eating Russian pussy" if you wanted to imply that there's some relationship

    It just scans as homophobic, just as calling trump/elon women as an insult reads as misogynistic.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    I still don't see how your words aren't bigotry just because you're convinced you have a suitable target.

    You never really answered my question directly, why does sucking dick imply a secret/subservient relationship?

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    You said “subservient”, not me, so maybe also take that one to your therapist too. (this is clearly a word choice you would judge someone else for)

    quoting you:

    “Sucking someone’s dick” is often used as a way to refer to someone sucking up to someone else in a way that isn’t explicable unless there were a secret relationship

    you were the one who said that the expression "sucking dick" means "sucking up to someone else"- do people often "suck up to" their subordinates or their superiors?

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)