‘Historic’ action by justice department closes ‘doggone dangerous’ loophole in Biden administration’s fight against gun violence

The sale of firearms on the internet and at gun shows in the US will in future be subject to mandatory background checks, the justice department said on Thursday as it announced a “historic” new action to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals.

The closing of the so-called gun show loophole, which exempts private transactions from restrictions that apply to licensed dealers, has long been a goal of the Biden administration, and is specifically targeted in the rule published in the federal register today.

The White House estimates that 22% of guns owned by Americans were acquired without a background check and that about 23,000 more individuals will be required to be licensed as a dealer after the rule’s implementation.

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[–] 108 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (14 children)

I thought online gun sales already required a background check, isn't that why they have to be shipped to an FFL? So that they can run a background check before ownership is transferred to you.

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  • [–] 77 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    This is correct. In addition all sales at gun show from a licensed FFL to a customer currently also require a background check. Currently the main two kinds of transfers that don't require federal background checks nationwide are private party sales and gifts. Eg. Selling your neighbor a shotgun or gifting your dad a hunting rifle. I believe these were both carved out exceptions as a result of the limitations on the Feds due to the commerce clause. Several states have tighter restrictions.

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  • [–] 26 points 2 years ago

    The private sales were excluded because they didn't want to give access to NICS to just anyone. States with more restrictions require you to pay a dealer or go to the sheriffs office to get approval.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I would expect too that the inability to effectively enforce those expectations was a motivating factor. The last time I bought a gun off some one I don't know we went to a FFL to comply with state background law. Really only because neither of us knew for sure if the other was a cop. If you know the other person. It can be very hard to prove a transfer ever happen.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    I believe the framing is something like buying locally on armslist.com, where the buyer and seller agree to meet up face-to-face to make the sale. No mailing it.

    Reading the article and a few others, this new regulation seems like election year posturing that doesn’t actually change much for the average person. The regulation is expanding who must register as an FFL from “making their livelihood from gun sales” to selling guns “predominantly to derive a profit”. Whatever that means. But it seems like it is specifically meant to exclude the occasional sale by a private person, which means that a private person happening to sell a gun at/near a gunshow or through armslist seems like they are still in the clear.

    Where that line is will surely be hashed out in court, but it seems like the simple sale of a single gun from one person to another is unaffected.

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    [–] 34 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Obviously, this is woke Nazi communist satanic slavery.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    It seems like this has less to do with where (gunshow) or how (internet) the guns are being sold, and more about the volume being moved.

    The “loopholes” are still intact for the private person making an occasional sale. These regulations are looking at people selling, in any way, guns in volumes that the government feels should be regulated as an FFL.

    Unsurprisingly, the article’s title and the general framing leads people to focus away from what the regulation is actually doing. It’s a story and a political move that manages to bring out the emotion in both pro and anti gun people, but where the change to the legal reality seems honestly boring.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    The occasional private party sale from a "personal collection" isn't what this is designed to stop. It's intended to close the loopholes that required no background checks in certain transactions, which:

    1. Allowed people to function like online dealers, buying and selling volumes of guns, but claiming they are selling from personal collections.

    2. Allowed for the very common "gun shows," which are frequent and widespread, to be used by #1 to sell guns to people in person not just online but to large, interested, and gathered crowds of people. These things are basically pop-up malls for guns, with a mixture of legitimate firearm businesses running background checks and tables of guns from a "private collection."

    3. It prevents the "fire-sale loophole," where gun stores, often ones that lose their license for other violations, close their business and liquidate their guns at steep discounts without background checks by claiming that the guns revert to private collection.

    The purpose of this rule revision is to get rid of those loopholes, which is how the overwhelming majority of guns sold without background check happen.

    The occasional sale between private parties from a personal collection, defined as a collection whose purpose is study, comparison, exhibition, or in pursuit of hobby like hunting and sport shooting isn't the issue here. That doesn't appear to be where most guns involved in crime that were purchased without a background check originate from.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    Yes I read the article. I was pointing out how that was the case rather than, as the article title frames with its title, something to do specifically with posting guns online, or selling privately on gunshow grounds.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 years ago (16 children)

    The rule, which clarifies who is considered to be “engaged in the business” as a firearms dealer, will take effect in 30 days’ time, and follows a three-month consultation period that attracted almost 388,000 comments to the website of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

    ...

    I mean, it's better than nothing, but still doesn't do anything about the people outside the gun show with a trunk full of Glocks they're selling for $100 over sticker price.

    If a gun show table was for a store, they always had you do a background check.

    This is a huge loophole, but this isn't fixing it.

    Hell, we don't even enforce straw purchase laws when it involves a minor, moving the guns over state ligns, and murdering multiple people...

    Even when the illegal buyer testifies on the stand that he intentionally planned and completed a straw our hase to illegally gain possession of a gun.

    All the laws in the world don't matter if no one enforced them.

    We need a background check on every sale, and to prosecute people for flagrantly breaking gun laws.

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  • [+] 17 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 15 points 2 years ago* (2 children)

    LiberalGunNut™ here. I sure as hell don't want a national registry. As we slide further into fascism, you want a man like Trump knowing who has what?

    And no, it really can't be enforced. Guys like me will obey the law and other won't, just as it is now.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    This has always been my conundrum.

    Do we give into the "sacrifice your liberty for safety" type thinking or do we see the actions of a man like Trump for what it really is: writing on the wall for something much worse to come.

    One day it won't be a buffoon like Trump, it will be a calculated and intelligent person. It's not a conspiracy theory anymore, Trump showed us the cracks in the foundation, we can choose to ignore it whenever the guy in office wears a blue tie, or we can take note for whats to come.

    But again, on one hand, kids dying isn't cool, but on the other, setting ourselves up for a potential systematic oppression also sounds pretty bad. We have enough systematic oppression as it is

    Not to say Trump is my sole factor for having these beliefs, I've always tangled with the issues of safety and liberty when it comes to gun laws.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    The thing is, kids dying is a cultural and social problem, not a gun problem. Mass shootings didn't start until the early 90s and they didn't really become "popular" until after Columbine. Mass shootings have been accessible and practical for far longer than that.

    I want to stop then as much as the next person, but the source of the problem is the isolation and perceived injustice of a particular demographic within whom mass shootings are a popular form of lashing out. E.G. "They've made me feel small and impotent for too long! I'll show them how much of a man I really am!" Taking away the guns, even if it were practical, would just cause a shift in tactics (see: Toronto van attack).

    We need to make these people feel valued and supported. We need to fix so many different aspects of our social services and economic landscape. The problems they're facing are the same problems a lot of other people are facing, so fixing them would lead to a better life for a huge pile of people.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago* (2 children)

    Even without a registry, that makes selling it without a check a clear crime.

    Now as long as the seller "doesn't know" the buyer can't pass a background, that gives them plausible deniability. Which has the unintended effect of sellers not even asking the name of the buyer.

    If every "private seller" knew they were breaking the law, and there was a good chance they'd be prosecuted if caught, they'd be a lot more likely to follow the law and go thru a FFL.

    We don't need to only do something that works 100% of the time, working 90% is still pretty good too...

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  • [+] 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)
  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That wouldn't be reliable to trace gun ownership history without the GOP-contested national gun registry. I'd even be for a "states' rights" solution similar to how vehicle ownership is tracked via the Title with the state's DMV. It will never be perfect, but "not perfect" shouldn't be the blocker of "any action at all".

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Most of us who private sale do not sell to people who don't have ccws, or aren't in good standing with the communities we all take part in. On top of that, criminals will not follow this law and those that do will just do what they already do. Straw purchases.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    I have never witnessed any seller give any thought to wether the buy had a CCW or not.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I mean, it’s better than nothing, but still doesn’t do anything about the people outside the gun show with a trunk full of Glocks they’re selling for $100 over sticker price.

    It makes it easier to prosecute them for not being private sales, so not nothing.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    It doesn't tho. They can just say they're furthering their collection. Feds would have to show a strong pattern of sales and if the person was buying and selling out of their own collection it gets gray.

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    [–] 8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    To all the gun owners/advocates out there who used rational thinking to back this: Thank you.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I've bought firearms online for years. I don't know how the loophole works and at this point I'm afraid to ask.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    The article’s title is misleading. The regulation isn’t “closing” the “loophole” of buying a gun without a background check from somewhere like armslist where you meet up in person for the exchange.

    The article title, and some politician comments want people to think that this a loophole to be worried about, and that it has been closed in a “historic” move.

    The regulation is going after people selling in such a volume, in any manner, that the government deems that they should be FFLs.

    In practical terms what that volume qualifies as is still vague, but the manner or location of sales isn’t something being touched.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Buy this vase and get a free gun

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