all 22 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

To me it's not really excitement so much as "oh god how do i make this ridiculous language do the correct thing".

I'm way more scared of rogue implicit copy constructors. I wonder if cppfront has any plan to fix problems like implicit copy and pessimising move.

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    In Rust, making something copyable is always explicit. I like that a lot.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Copy has a very different meaning between the two languages. In rust the equivalent of a c++ copy is a clone() call for anything non trivial

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    @BatmanAoD @Miaou It is just what you are used to.
    In C++ everything is a copy. Sometimes the compiler optimizes it away. clang-tidy may help. Having a clone() is very C-like.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    That's a common idiom but the default behaviour is still implicit copy, which, with VLAs and no smart pointers, makes things arguably worse than in c++

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] [S] 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    To me it’s not really excitement so much as “oh god how do i make this ridiculous language do the correct thing”.

    I think this all comes down to having the right mental model.

    In this case, I think it helps to know that:

    • returning by value by default implies making a copy,
    • ...but if the output type supports move semantics and the function returns a temporary value (rvalue) then the language is on your side and tries to move it instead of doing a copy.
    • and here's the kicker: now the language goes the extra mile and looks after you to avoid that copy, and if your return value allows the language to apply an optimization then the language is on your side and eliminates any potential copy without you having to do anything special.

    The zany behavior is that if you set up your function to push for a move (i.e., force a local variable to be treated as a temporary), the language ceases to be able to apply its optimization.

    That's basically it. No real mystery.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    The parts that seem likely to cause this confusion (which I shared when I first started using C++11) are:

    • Moves in C++ are always a potentially-destructive operation on a reference, not just a memcopy.
    • Consequently, "moving" a temporary still requires having two separate instances of the type, despite that generally not being what you want, hence RVO.
    • ...but move-semantics are generally presented and understood as an "optimization", and conceptually "take the guts of this value and re-use them as a new value" is both what RVO is doing and what move-semantics are doing.
    • std::move isn't a compiler intrinsic and doesn't force a move operation; it's just a function that returns an r-value reference. So it makes it harder, not easier, for the compiler to "see through" and optimize away, even in the case where "as if" rule should make that legal.
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

    I wonder if the language could be updated so these extra std::move invocations actually become harmless? return std::move is something that I see used quite a bit.

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

    I wonder if the language could be updated so these extra std::move invocations actually become harmless? return std::move is something that I see used quite a bit.

    These std::move invocations are harmless, as they only cast objects to their rvalue reference.

    The destructive bit takes place in the type they are assigned to, as it invokes either a move constructor or a move assignment operator, and calling those implies that the object you just passed to std::move will be invalidated after the call and should not be used subsequently.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    @lysdexic @QuadriLiteral Eh, no. Really. Changing the value category disables RVO

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    RVO

    I recommend you read the thread.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)
  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    It doesn't look like it, otherwise you'd be aware that the whole point of this submission is that casting return values with std::move disables RVO.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    @lysdexic You claimed otherwise:
    "
    These std::move invocations are harmless, as they only cast objects to their rvalue reference.
    "
    If you were right, we wouldn't have the motivation to look at this in EWG.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 years ago

    If you were right, we wouldn’t have the motivation to look at this in EWG.

    I am right. Not benefiting from RVO does not mean you're harming anyone.

    Again, I recommend you read the submission and also the discussion.

  • source
  • parent