pjwestin comments on “You will be more conservative as you grow older”

“You will be more conservative as you grow older” (lemmy.ml)

submitted 2 years ago by Confidant6198@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 67 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Whenever people say that you grow more conservative when you get older, they're working from the premise that you'll grow more affluent and comfortable later in life. For Americans, that just isn't true anymore. Wages are mostly stagnant, home ownership is much less attainable, and cost of living is at an all time high. Yet for some reason, pundits just can't figure out why millenials aren't getting more conservative as they age, or why zoomers appear to be following this trend.

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[–] Commiunism@lemmy.wtf 14 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yeah, though there's also the phenomena of older folks generally being more against change and clinging in the past more, the idea being that you have less future to look forward to (since you're closer to death than your birth) so instead you look towards the past and become nostalgic about it.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Oh yeah, that's definitely why older folks are socially conservative, although usually when I hear people say this (and definitely in the context of this meme) they're talking about becoming fiscally conservative.

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago

there’s also the phenomena of older folks generally being more against change and clinging in the past more,

That's more a consequence of the moment. Older people like stable material conditions. And with programs like pensions, public health care, and a safe suburban neighborhood with good amenities, they see the status quo as worth defending.

But swing through North Africa and the Middle East during the Arab Spring (anyone remember that?) or pop over to the UK in the wake of the last election cycle or visit an impoverished neighborhood in Haiti or a bombed neighborhood in Lebanon and you'll find plenty of elderly revolutionaries.

you look towards the past and become nostalgic about it

People may be nostalgic for their youth, but they are rarely nostalgic for being treated like a child.

And you're going to find it hard to locate a South African native nostalgic for Apartheid or a Pole or Romanian who misses occupation or a Chinese national who pines for the Century of Humiliation.

Westerners coming out of their post war pre-Reagan Golden Era just have more to be nostalgic for.

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[–] PolyLlamaRous@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

All of that is the same here in Germany. Check out the stats on home ownership here... But oh man are the kids flipping to the AfD (far right nazi party) quick and in huge numbers. It's scary to see.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Honestly, that makes sense to me. It seems like when economic systems start breaking down for people, they turn to populism. It's either left-wing populism, which argues for reigning in the excesses of capitalism, or right-wing populism, which scapegoats minority or immigrant groups. Right now, the youth in the U.S. are interested in left-wing populism, but right-wing populism (AKA Trumpism) is the only thing making it into the political mainstream.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

left-wing populism, which argues for reigning in the excesses of capitalism

Left wing means ending Capitalism, not just "reigning it in," which never works long-term.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

"Left-wing," is a very broad term. In the Weimar Republic, yes, the left-wing alternative to right-wing populism was communism. In America today, Democratic Socialists like Bernie Sanders are the left-wing alternative. If that doesn't fall in line with your definition of, "left-wing,' that's fine, but it most people wouldn't define it as exclusively anti-capitalist ideologies.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The Overton Window is relative, sure, but that's only useful in defined constraints, and only for one point in time. Leftism is socialist, rightism is Capitalist.

Bernie is a Social Democrat as well.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

...and Sanders himself defines Democratic Socialism as the completion of the New Deal reforms, not a gradual transition to a socialist economic system. There's a difference between the Overton Window shifting and a gradual change in definition over generations, but if you want definitions to remain entirely static, then we're both using left-wing incorrectly, as it's, "real," definition is opposing monarchy's veto power over parliament.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Yes, he calls himself a Democratic Socialist while being a Social Democrat, I'm aware.

Left wing in the modern context refers to anti-Capitalism.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

Left-wing has always had a loose, relative meaning, and arguing otherwise isn't attempting to stop the Overton Window from shifting. It's just an attempt to gatekeep who gets to be a, "real," leftist.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

No, it's getting people aligned on terms so proper organizing can happen. Liberals will never align with anticapitalists, for instance.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

Right. So, you want to take the term, "left-wing," which has held different meanings in different contexts over more than two centuries and redefine as exclusively anti-capitalist, so you can tell liberals that they're not actually left-wing. Now that's an attempt to shift the Overton Window.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Leftism is revolutionary, rightism is reactionary. Right now, Capitalism is the dominant system being struggled against by Leftists around the globe. During the French Revolution, the proletariat and bourgeoisie both collaborated to overthrow the monarchy, which is why it was left.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

I've run out of ways to say this, so I'll just reiterate it one more time and be done with it; the meaning of left-wing is not that rigid and will vary based on context. It does not specifically mean revolutionary or anti-capitalist. It generally means a set of social or economic principles aimed at creating a more egalitarian society, but what that means in terms of policy will depend greatly based on the culture and system of government in place. Do I think it sucks ass that the American liberals are considered left-wing in the U.S.? Yeah. Do they meet my definition of left-wing? Fuck no. But I don't get to define that broad term based on my personal standards.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

I've run out of ways to say this, so I'll just reiterate it one more time and be done with it

I understand what you mean, and have since the beginning. I disagree with you on it.

In a geopolitical context, leftism is socialism and rightism is Capitalism.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

You are welcome to disagree with it, but your definition is not shared by Merriam-Webster, Dictionary.com, or Wikipedia. The Encyclopedia Britannica comes closest to agreeing with you by saying that, "Socialism is the standard leftist ideology in most countries of the world," but it does not limit its definition of the political left to socialist and communist ideologies, and it certainly doesn't say, "Left wing means ending Capitalism, not just 'reigning it in." So maybe next time, before you jump into someone's comments to tell them they're using a word wrong, check if they're actually using it wrong or simply using it in a way that doesn't align with your personal beliefs.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Wikipedia agrees with me, the others are liberal rags.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

You:

Wikipedia agrees with me

Wikipedia:

Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy as a whole or certain social hierarchies...Ideologies considered to be left-wing vary greatly depending on the placement along the political spectrum in a given time and place...In addition, the term left-wing has also been applied to a broad range of culturally liberal social movements, including the civil rights movement, feminist movement, LGBT rights movement, abortion-rights movements, multiculturalism, anti-war movement and environmental movement as well as a wide range of political parties.

Anyway, we're done here.

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

Where are those youth in the US? While they seem loud online, why hasn’t that translated into votes?

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[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The youth in the US is mostly actually leftist, and they give them the choice to vote for a centrist or a right wing candidate. That's a big part of the reason. Also, just the fact that the youth also votes less, on average, even those youth who identify as right wing.

I know because I am an actual leftist, and I didn't vote for a long time into my adulthood, because it feels like a scam. I finally got over the fact that not participating in the vote is worse, but I completely understand the apathy amongst actual leftists in the US. We've had no true representation in our whole lives.

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

If you don’t vote for the centrist candidate, you can’t object to the right extremist.

Actually this does track that a lot of what I see online is people who seem unwilling to compromise: neither are what I want so both the same. You need to be willing to vote for the one closest to what you want, and work toward moving that leftward over time.

We had a huge success with “The Squad” getting enough attention before Biden’s first nomination to influence the party platform. As a minority voter, this path is more likely to succeed than not voting

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

If you don’t vote for the centrist candidate, you can’t object to the right extremist.

You absolutely can. Voting is not the extent of political action.

Actually this does track that a lot of what I see online is people who seem unwilling to compromise: neither are what I want so both the same. You need to be willing to vote for the one closest to what you want, and work toward moving that leftward over time.

You can't move right-wingers left through thoughts and prayers, this is astrology.

We had a huge success with “The Squad” getting enough attention before Biden’s first nomination to influence the party platform. As a minority voter, this path is more likely to succeed than not voting

And yet they accomplish nothing and are kept like barking dogs on leashes. The electoral process is a filter, it prevents radical change. See how the monsters treat Rashida Tlaib.

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

You can’t move right-wingers left

Exactly. If you have to chose between right wing and centrist , elect the centrist and move them a bit to the left. prepare to do this through multiple elections

And yet they accomplish nothing

And yet President Biden is very centrist but has passed some of the most far reaching changes ever on the environment, renewable energy, unionization, etc.

An example of both is climate change regulation. Legislation passed during Biden’s term should get us about halfway to our net carbon goal. A pessimist may focus on that not being nearly enough, but I see a new center, where we can have more success working on more substantial change

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago

Exactly. If you have to chose between right wing and centrist , elect the centrist and move them a bit to the left. prepare to do this through multiple elections

The Greens are the centrists, if you'll vote Green I will. How do you plan on moving them left, though? Thoughts and prayers?

And yet President Biden is very centrist but has passed some of the most far reaching changes ever on the environment, renewable energy, unionization, etc.

Biden is a right-wing Neoliberal, lmao. He has not passed some of the most "far reaching changes ever" on any of those subjects, that's an insult to leftists everywhere. He's a failure on all accounts to meaningfully address those issues.

An example of both is climate change regulation. Legislation passed during Biden’s term should get us about halfway to our net carbon goal. A pessimist may focus on that not being nearly enough, but I see a new center, where we can have more success working on more substantial change

"Biden failed to do what was necessary, when other countries have exceeded what was necessary. Here's why that's a good thing"

Lmao

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[–] meowMix2525@lemm.ee 2 points 2 years ago*

Because for every loud voice you read on lemmy there's 1000 boomers and nut jobs that either a) don't use the Internet regularly b) don't leave Facebook or c) hide away in right wing circlejerk sites like truth social and 4chan. A and B just being old, and none of them being people that can handle having their views challenged, which is definitely going to happen in a space like this.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Actually, youth turnout is pretty high right now, with record turnout being set recently for both midterms and presidential elections. In 2020, turnout for the under thirty crowd was 50%, a possible new record, and it was 30% and 27% in 2018 and 2022 respectively, which are 30 year highs. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party leadership prefers centrist candidates, and frequently puts its thumb on the scale to ensure that moderate candidates win, so that turnout isn't translating into progressive politics.

Funny enough, just after I made the original comment, I read an article about how the youngest U.S. voters are starting to lean further right than before, so it's possible the ship has sailed on this all together. Given how aggressively the right wing has been to trying to indoctrinate young voters, who are watching Democrats successfully suppress left-wing populism while Republicans embrace right-wing populism, it's possible the youth are deciding that the far-right offers them only chance for change. I hope not, though, because then we're screwed.

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[–] CazzoneArrapante@lemm.ee 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

German government should just ban the AfD and end with it.

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[+] tasteful_garbage@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

[deleted]

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[–] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago*

The Nazi Party being banned was good, just not enough

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

You 100% can, fascists are a national threat. Entertaining them via "civility" is nonsense.

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[–] CazzoneArrapante@lemm.ee 0 points 2 years ago

Fuck this "goody two-shoes" bullshit, ban and repress.

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[–] bountygiver@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago

yup it applies only to the privileged class, and of course only people in that class would think that is the general experience.

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

What if you start to become better off, but realize so many other parents are unable to provide for their kids like you can, and you can’t hope to provide for your kids like the wealthy can? What if paying exorbitant amounts of money for your kids education drives home the point that we need to make that investment for all kids futures? What if you are more often on the hiring side and realize your well being depends on the next generation having opportunities and the means to successfully achieve them?

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[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

Then you are alright with me. I think a large amount of our problems as a species come from those with a lack of empathy. If everyone thought like you, then we wouldn't have the vast wealth inequalities and greatly varying qualities of life between working class and upper class.

On the other hand, if everyone had empathy in the first place, I think we wouldn't have the economic systems that put profits over people.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The Mode of Production determines social thought, not the other way around.

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[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

You don't think that more empathetic people would be involved in creating fairer modes of production? I think sociopaths and those lacking empathy are at least part of the reason that capitalism still runs rampant in the world, but its just my opinion.

If you downvoted me don't know why, just adding my opinion.

I know plenty of people that grew up in capitalism and still have empathy, and also hate capitalism, so I guess I don't understand exactly what you mean, either.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

You don't think that more empathetic people would be involved in creating fairer modes of production? I think sociopaths and those lacking empathy are at least part of the reason that capitalism still runs rampant in the world, but its just my opinion.

The base creates and reinforces the superstructure, which reinforces the base, not the other way around.

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[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

The base creates and reinforces the superstructure, which reinforces the base, not the other way around.

I don't know what this has to do with empathetic people and sociopaths. I understand that the system that we live in is more likely to produce sociopaths than a Socialistic one, but I don't think that doesn't mean we can't talk about them and their hindrance to our advancement, considering that they do indeed exist.

I usually appreciate you spreading knowledge, but I don't really see what you are trying to add here. Nothing I wrote disagrees with anything you said, and vice versa.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

You said if people were more empathetic we would have a better Mode of Production, but the process is reversed.

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[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

OK I see now. I think that both are true in a way. It's kind of a negative feedback loop. The mode of production makes more people greedy and less empathetic, and that makes people more opposed to changing to a fair mode of production. Again, that's just my opinion, I am not an economist, just a simple Prole.

Definitely agree with you that it starts with the mode of production. Appreciate you clarifying, and hope you have a nice day.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

No problem! They reinforce each other, yes, but it starts with the Mode of Production, which is why as the productive forces improve, so too does social knowledge which causes a shift.

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[–] pjwestin@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Then you're a good person, which is a statistical minority. Most people will never intentionally vote against their economic self-interests by raising their own taxes (although you can trick them into voting against their economic self interests; Republicans have been doing that for years by using racist dog-whistles to attack entitlement programs and pushing discredited trickle-down economic theories).

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