161
Opinion: Distributions that only change non-system pre-installed software or desktop environment should instead be packages or scripts (lemmy.ml)
submitted 3 years ago* by [M] to c/linux@lemmy.ml
78 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

The majority of Linux distributions out there seem to be over-engineering their method of distribution. They are not giving us a new distribution of Linux. They are giving us an existing distribution of Linux, but with a different distribution of non-system software (like a different desktop environment or configuration of it)

In many cases, turning an installation of the base distribution used to the one they're shipping is a matter of installing certain packages and setting some configurations. Why should the user be required to reinstall their whole OS for this?

It would be way more practical if those distributions are available as packages, preferably managed by the package manager itself. This is much easier for both the user and the developer.

Some developers may find it less satisfying to do this, and I don't mean to force my opinion on anyone, but only suggesting that there's an easier way to do this. Distributions should be changing things that aren't easily doable without a system reinstall.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [S] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

How would you do that? Debian would not create and maintain a “core debian” variant just to be installed then receive the extra packages.

To be honest, I do not fully understand your question here. Could you rephrase?

Would the *ubuntu packages replace, instead of add on top of default debian packages?

They must not replace. If they are merely installing KDE on top of Ubuntu, then theres nothing to do here. The work is already done for us. But if it is doing more than taht, then they should be different packages building on top of the default debian packages for KDE et al.

Sort of like how LunarVim is a distribution of NeoVim. It is the same NeoVim, but with pre-configurations and plugins shipped OOTB, and it can be packaged separately.

What about dependencies?

Thats the beauty of this. Package managers are already equipped with dependency management. It is far easier to manage dependencies with a package rather than rolling out your own distribution. It is literally one of the biggest reasons why we use package managers to begin with. We dont want dependency hell!

Would debian have to coordinate with all *ubuntu maintainers (and they too, between them) for compatibility tests every time debian needed to update one of its packages? Or they’d just update and *ubuntu would have to scramble to release fixes for what had been broken?

This is a debian specific question, so I will try to answer more generally. It would just have to be done in the same way any package is maintained on that distribution. And this varies by distro; some distributions have different workflows for their package maintenance. The point is that we make use of these already defined workflows that have worked for decades and been iterated on. It is much easier to package than to create a new distribution.

Not to mention convenience; would you have to download debian, download *ubuntu, install debian, then your *ubuntu?

Instead of installing *ubuntu, you install Debian, then run one command: sudo apt install *ubuntu. I see these as nearly equivalent. Moreover, it could be made to be an option in the distribution's installer, sort of like EndeavourOS and Fedora do it.

Why not then package the “core debian”, with the tested component versions that work with the *ubuntu packages you’re downloading?

That can be what I mean with it being an option in the installer. But if you mean maintaining a whole separate distribution just for this, well ... you are maintaining an entirel separate distribution just for this ... instead of just maintaining a package.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    You fail to realize that each distro is maintained by different people. Your reasoning would make sense if the "core debian" was maintained and packaged by the same people who maintained and packaged *ubuntu.

    The end user would download "core debian" from debian, and the *ubuntu "flavor" from *ubuntu. Installing debian then going "apt install kubuntu" wouldn't work because kubuntu is not in the debian repository.

    If debian changed their downloadable "core debian", it could make it incompatible with what's in the kubuntu repository. They are not maintained by the same employees of "Linux inc."

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (2 children)

    You fail to realize that each distro is maintained by different people.

    I very well realize this. Packages are maintained by different people too!

    The idea is that installing a *ubuntu would literally be the same as installing one of the many packages already available. It works for all those packages, so why wouldn't it work here?

    Installing debian then going "apt install kubuntu" wouldn't work because kubuntu is not in the debian repository.

    Yes, that is correct. I apologize if you misunderstood what I said. I did not mean to say that this is the current state. This is what I think how things should be.

    Though for the case of kubuntu, it apparently is pretty close. You can in fact already do "apt install kubuntu-desktop", but you have to be on regular Ubuntu instead of debian. Which is fine, since Ubuntu changes a lot more about debian than just pre installed packages, so it works out for my example.

    If debian changed their downloadable "core debian",

    I do not suggest they should!

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    When debian maintainers need to release an update of a debian package, they need to make sure it doesn't break compatibility with ... other debian packages - yes maintained by other people. They don't need to test it with a dozen *ubuntu and other .deb variants, nor coordinate with those other maintainers and wait for them to release their new, compatible versions.

    It's already hard to do that within the same distro.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)

    I am not sure if you are onto something or you don't understand the proposition. e.g. how does KDE or any other DE developer maintain their packages on debian? Do they not? And its up to debian developers to decide what version of KDE they use? If thats the case then I see your point, which would make it very hard for the so-called "kubuntu" package maintainer, because they have to rely on what debian maintainers do.

    uses their

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago*

    Yes, that's what I mean. For example suppose you had this mixed solution (core comes from debian repository, "kubuntu personality" from kubuntu repository).

    Then debian maintainers release updates for their packages - which they tested and validated in systems that use only other debian packages.

    Next time you update your system, it may happen that the new version of debian components are no longer compatible with the kubuntu components.

    Debian won't wait for or check if every distro who uses their "core" has tested debian changes and released compatible new packages of their own.

    Probably most debian based distros simply repackage many base debian components with minimum or no changes, but they know those releases are compatible with their own "customized" packages, and can have control of their dependencies.

    Edit: I didn't address one of your questions directly: No, developers and maintainers of a linux system component (as kde, and even the kernel) not necessarily are the maintainers of a specific distro packages.

    For example, kernel decelopers and maintainers release a new kernel release independent of any distro. It's up to the distro maintainers to test and package this, then make it available in their repo.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] -1 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I do not suggest they should!

    No? do suggest debian kept their install package frozen forever just to make this proposition viable?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    Would would they do that? You act as if debian doesn't already package a massive amount of software, and has no issue adding on to the list.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    They test that massive amount of packages to make sure the dependecies and compatibility are kept. They do that between DEBIAN packages. The maintainers of the bash debian package can't just shove a new release in the repository. It's tested in DEBIAN systems first.

    Who would test this new bash package in every fskcing "addon distro" that installs on top of "core debian" before releasing it to the debian repository? Or would the maintainers of every fscking distro have to scramble to update their packages after debian released this, and users have updated, breaking compatibility with the "addon" packages?

    Or the opposite, the "addon" distro package developers want to use a new feature from a library, but can't, because debian hasn't updated their packaged version yet.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] -1 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    youre over complicating it. Debian adds new packages to its repository all the time, and this would be just one more package they add. Simple as that.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    ha, so you don't mean having multiple distros dropping their "base systems" and only providing the "addon" part in their repos, but actually having the "core" distro include all the "addon" flavors into their repo. haha really, really "simple".

    "Hey debian, I'm a one man operation out from North Korea, and I made this customization package. I swear it complies with every privacy and security policies, and that it is compatible with your core system. No it won't break anything. Can you please include it in your repo?"

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent