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Can someone debunk the stupid “communism only works on paper” argument? (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 3 years ago* by to c/comradeship@lemmygrad.ml
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I vaguely remember a user debunking this claim but I cannot find that comment and I don’t remember what post it was on.

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[–] 28 points 3 years ago (1 child)

Why have socialist countries universally uplifted their population into higher literacy, standard of living, working conditions, women’s rights etc etc?

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  • [+] -13 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (3 children)
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  • [–] 11 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    Good point but it wouldn’t explain why their literacy rates are higher than even the West who have been industrialized and given every advantage

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  • [+] 5 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)
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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    I think the implied question is how they started behind the advanced capitalist nations and came to rival or better them. Part of the literacy drive in China, for example was to shift from traditional to simplified characters. I'm actually curious as to whether any other (capitalist) country has done or could do anything similar. And whether this could be achieved without exercising state authority.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Stalin’s first five year plan changed that for tens of millions as they suddenly had running water, electricity and public schooling/vocational training.

    So it worked

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  • [+] 4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (2 children)
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  • [–] 9 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    I applaud you for acknowledging the benefits of socialism even though it sounds like you disagree with it overall.

    I'd encourage you, though, to think more about what "authoritarian" actually means. All states claim authority to use violence. The only limits states acknowledge on how much violence they can use are the limits they agree to (and therefore can abandon at their convenience). All states sharply respond to certain types of dissent -- certainly violent dissent, almost always dissent that (the state claims) is associated with a foreign state, and often even peaceful dissent. This applies to any liberal democracy you can name. Look at how many peaceful protesters the U.S. brutalized in 2020, look at the recent U.K. ruling on sentences for peaceful protesters blocking roads, look at how Germany preemptively bans even discussion of Nazism.

    So when Cuba arrests dissenters who are backed by an extremely hostile foreign power, is that any different from what the U.S. would do? When the USSR arrested nationalist dissenters who sympathized with Nazis, is that any different than what Germany does? What actually makes these "authoritarian" countries different from the "good" ones, apart from having the audacity to reject capitalism?

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    If you're here in good faith, I would recommend reading "On Authority." It isn't too long, more of a pamphlet than anything else.

    https://redsails.org/on-authority/

    Capitalist society has tried to fearmonger about vague "Authoritarianism" as long as it has been around. They were calling socialism "authoritarian" before Mao, before Stalin, before any actual socialist state even existed to use as a case study.

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  • [+] -3 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)
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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    "Good faith" just means being willing to hear us out. Obviously I'd like it if you would change your mind, but as long as you're trying to understand our point of view(even if you don't change yours) you're still welcome here.

    My point was that capitalist media of the 1800s was accusing socialism of being "authoritarian" before any socialist nations existed. How could they declare something to be "authoritarian" (or anything for that matter) before it actually existed? Does that not seem like poisoning the well?

    And it seems your understanding of these nations comes solely from a western, capitalist country's interpretation of them and their system. Are their systems "authoritarian" or are they just "different" to the system you live in? Maybe try and read some primary sources on how they structure their system, and listen to what they say about their own system, then weigh what they say about it with what you already know, compare and contrast, that sort of thing. If the only information you get about a nation comes directly from their biggest enemies, of course you're going to think they're all horrible.

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  • [+] -2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)
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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    By that definition every state would be "authoritarian". Try overthrowing your government and see how that goes.

    Are you actually listening to what you are saying? Because it really doesn't sound like you've thought this definition through.

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  • [+] -2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (2 children)
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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    You're almost there!

    Why do you think that a government will oppose a complete system change, but will allow a party change? You're a pol-sci student, you can get this one!

    If a government had two socialist parties, would that make it more democratic and less authoritarian? But if both parties had the same goals, what would even be the point of having two of them? Would it actually be more democratic to have two parties, or would that just be a means of enabling the people to feel like things are more democratic, because they get to vote between two parties (but both parties ultimately have the same goals.)

    Now imagine say...a capitalist country that does that. That has two parties, but both parties represent the capitalist class, not the people in general. Is that actually democratic? The people get to choose after all! But they only get a choice between two parties that don't actually represent them.

    What is a democracy if not a government built around the representation of the people? If the people are feeling represented by their government, does it matter how many parties their are? More parties doesn't mean more democratic. What matters is that those parties represent the people. Even if there is just a single party, as long as the people have proper representation, it is democratic.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    The fact remains you can start new parties that aren’t capitalist and advocate their views as long as you are not advocating violence.

    That is ahistorical. As a polisci major you should have learned about McCarthyism.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    Buddy, you really think that was condescending? Ooh boy.

    You aren't the one calling the shots here champ. This is a Marxist Leninist instance. That means that you should try and understand the Marxist Leninist point of view before smugly telling us we're all wrong.

    I've given you sources, I've told you about trying to understand that your perspective isn't the only one, and you call me condescending, that's an awful big word there slugger, well done!

    You clearly aren't actually interested in learning, so please take your smug elsewhere, it isn't welcome here. I'm not interested in a "debate" with someone who demands I be "civil" by not calling them out when they say bullshit. You've been trying to shove multiple different societies into simplistic labels rather than trying to understand any of them. It's a shame you took Pol-Sci instead of Anthropology, you'd probably have a better set of tools to understand this stuff that way.

    You accuse me of saying a triangle has more than three sides, but have you considered that maybe I'm talking about squares and pentagons as well as triangles? And you're the only one here insisting every shape is triangular?

    This is for the lurkers, an essay on how this sort of thinking is so prevalent in yankees:

    https://www.qiaocollective.com/articles/american-revolution-tu-zhuxi/

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  • [+] 0 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)
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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    I've repeatedly tried to tell you that your worldview isn't the only one, and your only response is to assume malice on my part, rather than consider that you are not in fact the arbiter of all that is True and Good in the world.

    It's kind of outrageous that a simple concept: "There are more points of view than your own" is apparently lost on you. Just because you can't understand that concept doesn't mean you are correct. Get your head out of your own ass. Though obviously, you never will, because you love the smell of your own farts too much. You clearly aren't here in good faith, you're just here to lecture us about how we should all sniff our own assholes and call that political theory.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago

    The issue is that capitalism has made itself indissoluble. Capitalism is very good at co-opting any threat and integrating it into it. Like how you can buy Leninade in the US (which I hear is just mid). Well, except fascism lol (cf 1945).

    Any revolutionary message can be made into a commodity to be bought and sold, reduced to its simple exchange value -- which is something Marx talked about extensively.

    Capitalism doesn't need to jail people for speaking up against it. It can defang them completely and integrate their message in the pursuit of profit. Like how Just Stop Oil is being funded by an oil heiress. Was the USSR at a same developmental stage that they could allow people to "suggest" a completely different system?

    And the proof this mechanism is working... is that we're having this conversation. Vocal disagreement with capitalism is useless. It does not materially do anything against capitalism. Whenever we turn that disagreement into action and get slightly too close, that's when the arm of the state comes up to ban our parties (authoritarian by your definition), jail us (authoritarian by your definition), close down our media outlets (authoritarian by your definition) and even sometimes team up with fascists to assassinate us (authoritarian by your definition).

    But try suggesting in 1790s France that you should have a king again.

    And the DPRK isn’t even communist it is a hereditary monarchy masking as “communist” where you cannot suggest a new leader within the party

    The DPRK is led by a coalition of three parties; the Social-Democrats, the Chongdu party (religious), and the Workers' Party. I dread to see what they teach you in your polisci degree because this is pretty fundamental stuff about the DPRK, even Wikipedia talks about it, it's not like it's some super obscure factoid.

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