mateomaui comments on Donald Trump is at war with the Constitution's insurrection clause—just 2 sentences in an amendment added after the Civil War

Donald Trump is at war with the Constitution's insurrection clause—just 2 sentences in an amendment added after the Civil War (fortune.com)

submitted 2 years ago by BobTheBoozer@lemmy.world to c/usa@lemmy.ml

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"“If President Trump committed a heinous act worthy of disqualification, he should be disqualified for the sake of protecting our hallowed democratic system, regardless of whether citizens may wish to vote for him in Colorado,”

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[–] mateomaui@reddthat.com 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

Should amend it so that people who write-in a candidate disqualified from the ballot for such reasons should also be disqualified as voters for the next two cycles.

edit: that goes for these buttholes as well

https://lemmy.world/post/9831042

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[–] alvvayson@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (2 children)

If he's disqualified for the office, those ballots will be void.

You can write in Arnold Schwarzenegger and he could get a majority, but those votes would all be void, since he is not a natural-born citizen.

What's the saying that the Republicans love so much?

The US is not a democracy, it's a constitutional republic.

There is only one way to peacefully change the constitution - and that's through an amendment.

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[+] Pregnenolone@lemmy.world -7 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The naturalization clause of the constitution for presidential eligibility has never been tested, and actually is quite a complex interpretation, so it’s not absolute to say Arnie would be ineligible.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago

It is absolute. Look at all the nonsense over Obama's birth certificate, it absolutely is a hard requirement.

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[+] mateomaui@reddthat.com -8 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

Congrats on missing the point.

Also

There is only one way to peacefully change the constitution - and that's through an amendment.

So did you miss the part where I started the statement with “Should amend”?

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[–] alvvayson@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

So everyone gets a ballot with their social security number on it or something?

I know you jest, but chill dude. Not every reply is an attack.

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[–] abbenm@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

I know you jest, but chill dude.

I was with you, but you completely lost me here. It's also the most bizarre place to rush in and take a side. There's some interesting points being made about whether your vote should have legal consequences, about what it means to be it be disqualified as a candidate versus whether that should manifest in the act of voting.

And, of all the subjects, you're choosing to weigh in in favor of the idea that people should have a blank check to misinterpret statements without correction.

Maybe it's the philosophy major in me, but this degree of casual disregard for truth, and viewing other people's desire for truth as an unwarranted overreaction, it leaves an awfully bitter taste. I go back and forth on how I feel about Lemmy as an offer of hope and improvement upon Reddit, and this is a moment where my optimism fades.

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[–] alvvayson@lemmy.world 1 point 2 years ago

If you are not jesting and seriously want to void the secrecy of the ballot and criminalize the act of voting...

Then you are as much a threat to democracy and the constitution as Trump is and I really wouldn't mind if you went back to reddit and stayed there.

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[+] mateomaui@reddthat.com -7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Not every jest requires a educational response. I’m still pretty sure you missed the point.

edit:

So everyone gets a ballot with their social security number on it or something?

This seems like a question from someone completely unfamiliar with how some people in some states, such as felons, lose their right to vote, and not only can it be tracked, but some of them have been sent back to jail for voting even though they didn’t know they weren’t allowed to vote.

Do I agree with that last part? Depends on the felon and the felony, but the point in this reply is that you don’t need ballots with social security numbers for such enforcement.

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[–] alvvayson@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Writing in a candidate is still anonymous and should stay so.

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[+] mateomaui@reddthat.com -7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Not in every state. Hawaii and other states send you a ballot with a unique number, associated with your voter registration, so you can track if your vote was counted properly, and for election officials to enforce various measures (as well as possible) like preventing someone from voting twice.

Anyway, since it apparently needs explaining for you, the point of my original comment is that if someone casts a write-in vote for a convicted insurrectionist, who was removed from their ballot because the state or country judged the candidate guilty of insurrection activity to overthrow the government, then that voter should be considered complicit in or supportive of insurrection activity, and similarly disqualified from voting for a period of time.

This is a personal opinion of something that will probably never happen, even though entirely possible, so since you’ve already identified it as a jest, take your own advice and chill about it.

I’m done here.

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[–] candybrie@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (1 child)

They'll generally have a 2 envelope scheme if things are marked with a serial number. One envelope to track that you voted that contains a sealed envelope with your votes. Its unlawful to open the second envelope until they're unable to tell whose vote it is. Sure, you could figure out who someone voted for, but you are not allowed to.

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[–] mateomaui@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago

And since we’re talking about a proposed measure that will likely never come to pass, we can also imagine that if such an amendment were to be made, it could include a loophole allowing for ballots casting votes for disqualified insurrectionists to be investigated to find out who those voters are. Really not that big of a leap.

Goddamn y’all are exhausting.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 17 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I strongly disagree. Voting should never be illegal or have legal repercussions. Ever. Not only is it protected speech under the first amendment, it's more importantly a critical part of our democratic system.

There should be stiff consequences for running for an office you know you are disqualified from, but casting a vote should never be illegal for legal voters.

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[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

The US seems to disqualify quite a lot of voters for reasons that don't apply in most other "western" countries though.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

That may be true, I'm not sure on the facts surrounding that. If you have specific sources, I'd be interested in seeing them.

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[–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Well, can jailed people vote in the US?

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

Fair point, but I think that only applies to felonies (you can generally vote if it's just a misdemeanor), and most states restore voting rights as soon as they're released.

Do other countries allow currently incarcerated people with felonies to vote?

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[–] LoveSausage@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago*

Yea , that is more a 3rd world country way. Most countries do not remove basic rights besides you freedom when jailing them. Can't think of any examples actually.

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[–] PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago

Some of them can, yes.

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[–] abbenm@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

Right, I don't agree that it should be a legal consequence.

I do however think it should be a moral consequence, a judgment visited on those who would cast such a ridiculous vote. The best way I've heard it termed, is that Trump isn't merely unqualified, he's unqualified squared, which is to say, if you think he's fit to be president, then you also aren't qualified.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 1 point 2 years ago

With votes being anonymous, I'm not sure who is going to provide any sort of moral consequence here. Those who support him likely mostly watch media that supports him. The government shouldn't have a say in morality, they deal in law.

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[–] mateomaui@reddthat.com 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Noted, we can agree to disagree.

Also noted is that the 14th Amendment is inherently undemocratic by design, preventing anyone from being able to vote in Confederate insurrectionists.

And, as said before, there are already instances in our country where voting illegally gets you jail time, so, like many other rights, it’s not completely unabridged at present time.

What’s amazing to me is that my original comment could be distilled down to “sure would be nice if treasonous voters supporting treasonous, disqualified candidates were also penalized for being treasonous”, with a measure that almost certainly would never happen, and you’re wasting your time arguing over this.

I didn’t even suggest they go to jail or face fines, just temporarily lose voting rights for a period of time to think about what they did.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

my original comment could be distilled down to “sure would be nice if treasonous voters supporting treasonous, disqualified candidates were also penalized for being treasonous”

And I completely disagree with that notion. Voting for a treasonous person isn't treason, it's a wasted vote because a treasonous person is ineligible to hold office.

The only crime you could commit when voting is fraud, meaning you're voting more times than you're allowed to. You should be allowed to cast your vote however you want with no fear or reprisal, and it's on you to make that vote count.

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[–] mateomaui@reddthat.com -2 points 2 years ago*

Noted, still don’t care, you’re welcome to your opinion.

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[+] PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml -7 points 2 years ago

Agreed, as long as liberals like you are also disqualified after voting not for what you believe in, but for voting against what you you find offensive.

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