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Always remember, both sides are just as bad! (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[+] -17 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This is the same argument that led to the red scare in the 50s. Want to unionize your workplace? That's not the only union you want! Want to bring an anti consumerism message? Literally communism! It's much easier to group undesirables together so you can marginalize the libertarians, evangelicals and business class in one fell swoop by labeling them Fascist

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  • [–] 9 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    It's not really the same argument at all.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Please elaborate

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    If you vote for a Republican, you’re effectively supporting fascism. That’s what American politics has turned into.

    That argument holds ground in some European countries where left and right parties are actually left and right. In a country like the US where the left is right and the right is fascism, they did the grouping themselves.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I'd like to point out that the political compass is a really bad construct for understanding politics. Ideology is made from smaller factors such as economics, tradition, religion, intellectualism, and other institutions. Fascism came out of socialist circles, as did Nazism. The modern political compass came out of the cold war and helped both sides justify themselves: the communists who wanted to be as far from the Nazis as possible and the Americans who wanted to be seen as the voice of the moderates. (Don't look at the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact or Jim Crow)

    The Republican party promotes Right wing populism. Elements of that include autarky, isolationism and conservatism.

    Fascism is a very specific ideology, and while the leader of the Republican party Trump has some things in common with it, he is not on the war path like a true fascist would be. He is less imperialist than previous presidents. He wants to pull out from NATO and abandon the Kurdish people in Syria. Again, Trump is a populist. He did not come out of socialist circles preaching an anti-elitist message.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Depends on what you mean by “being on a war path”. Imperialism isn’t a strict requirement for fascism, and he’s very much on a national war path. Wikipedia describes it like this:

    Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

    I think the only part he might not fit is “strong regimentation of economy”.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    But Trump lacks rebirth rhetoric outside of 'MAGA' He isn't seeking to subjugate the other nations of the world for the spirit of America. He didn't really support the US military, and doesn't employ brown shirts to silence opposition. That may be because our institutions are durable enough to resist him now though.

    I do see the argument though. I however oppose reductionism. It's dehumanizing and anti-democratic. Problem comes when one has to fight populism with intellectualism. It doesn't work because it's not snappy

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Again, going outside your country’s border isn’t really required for fascism.

    About silencing opposition… he’s getting real close with stuff like Jan 6 or the doxxing in his trial. He just doesn’t employ people but counts on fanatics to do the job for free.

    On reductionism, yeah, it’s usually not the most honest of tactics, but as you said we can’t fight populism with intellectualism. I’m annoyed at people saying Trump is “Literally Hitler”, but calling him Fascist is honestly so close that I don’t really see it as that unfair.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    oh no no no. don't you see? they are right, they don't HAVE to elaborate. But in turn if YOU don't explain your point of view, you're a fascist in hiding. IN fact, even if you DO lay out your argument, it's wrong just because they say so. Is this your first day on the internet? heavy on the /s

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    You're 100% right. You'll still get downvoted and so will I for saying this, because people vote with their emotions here.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    I don't think downvotes should be a thing at all tbh. Just silences discussion.

    If a comment is actively hateful and/or breaks rules you'd report it instead, as is the case in alot of Lemmy instances.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    How is anyone on Lemmy silenced by downvotes? Just basic feelings of shame because some people on the internet didn't like what they said?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    People have a tendency to pile on and dismiss any opinion or comment with -1 votes or less instead of properly responding to it, like what's happening just above this comment. Turns the place into an echo chamber.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    How does it turn the place into an echo chamber? Why would anyone let that silence them? There are zero repercussions for a downvote on Lemmy.

    Is your ego really so fragile that "people don't like my comment" is enough to make you stop talking?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Lmao did you even read my comment? Who said anything about not commenting if you're getting negative votes?

    People have a tendency to pile on and dismiss any opinion or comment with -1 votes or less instead of properly responding to it, like what's happening just above this comment.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    That comment did not justify your original comment, which was:

    I don’t think downvotes should be a thing at all tbh. Just silences discussion.

    Someone not responding to your post does not silence discussion. Neither do downvotes. No one, not even you, is entitled to a response. Who sees a downvote and decides that they were going to respond but now won't? That's ludicrous.

    So as far as- "Who said anything about not commenting if you’re getting negative votes?," that would be you, who claimed downvotes silenced discussion.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    No one is entitled to a response

    Again, did you even read my comment? Pointing out a tendency people have isn't "entitlement". People shy away from small numbers and interact with large numbers more.

    Who sees a downvote and decides that they were going to respond but now won't?

    We literally see this in threads all the time. Negatively voted comments are responded to with one-liners or nothing at all, as if the negative votes somehow prove them wrong.

    Someone not responding to your post does not silence discussion

    Lmao I'll be "discussing" this topic with my wall now

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    You again did not explain how anyone is silenced by downvotes. And we do not "literally see this" because you have no idea if those people who downvoted were ever going to respond.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    how anyone is silenced by downvotes

    My comment:

    I don't think downvotes should be a thing at all tbh. Just silences anyone discussion.

    .

    you have no idea if those people who downvoted were ever going to respond

    That's not what I said:

    People have a tendency to ... dismiss any opinion ... with -1 votes or less instead of properly responding to it

    People dismiss it either because it has low visibility since it's downvoted so people wouldn't see it, or because of our tendency for big numbers.

    Taking out downvotes would allow for less popular opinions (that do not break rules by being hateful or spam; you'd report it in those cases) to have higher visibility and discussion since the majority can't just downvote it, just because they slightly disagree with it or are biased against it, and silence discussion.

    People who do agree would also be able to show it through upvotes, and it wouldn't be eaten by the downvotes.

    Thanks for your comments actually. Got me to think about the benefits more clearly. Discussions are great.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    People dismiss it either because it has low visibility since it’s downvoted so people wouldn’t see it, or because of our tendency for big numbers.

    That is absolutely not how Lemmy works. Downvoting has no effect whatsoever. This is not Reddit.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    That is absolutely not how Lemmy works. Downvoting has no effect whatsoever.

    I assume you're talking about the 'active' and 'hot' sorting?

    From the Lemmy docs:

    • Active uses the post votes, and latest comment time (limited to two days).
    • Hot uses the post votes, and the post published time.

    You'd also notice this if you use Lemmy for any length of time lmao

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You know what's weird? What's weird is that, despite your claim that people aren't having discussions with people who get downvoted, my reply to you was part of a huge amount of discussion with someone who was downvoted. And that is true of multiple other discussions in this post.

    Is this post special? Is it the exception?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Is this post special? Is it the exception?

    I am the exception because I keep the less visibility thing in mind

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    That does not explain why this post contradicts your claim multiple times, but your massive ego is noted.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Look, with nearly 100 comments a day, we realize that no amount of downvotes is going to silence you from commenting in every post. However, for us mere mortals, can you not see how a dogpile of downvotes from the local majority opinion might dissuade some individuals from wanting to engage in discussion?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago*

    It’s useful for gauging the general opinion on a subject, or for “exposing” fake affirmations without having to dig comments.

    It does bring its issues, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Plus it’s not like Reddit where you just have the balance, people indeed have the tendency to ignore/comment snarkily on “-5” comments, but if they see a “+10/-15” they often realize it’s a controversial opinion and might weigh in.

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