▲ 1063 ▼ Israel's siege of Gaza is illegal, EU says (euobserver.com) submitted 2 years ago by NightOwl@lemm.ee to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml 287 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -33 points 2 years ago (4 children) Good luck stopping a millennia old feud permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 54 points 2 years ago (2 children) Damn, 1948 was a thousand years ago? Time is weird, I guess. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 15 points 2 years ago (1 child) If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 16 points 2 years ago (1 child) Those Jews were not interested in a Jewish state in Palestine. That didn’t come until political Zionism in the interwar period. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -8 points 2 years ago (2 children) Do you think the region of Palestine and Arabs/Jews were created in 1948? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 39 points 2 years ago* (2 children) This isn't a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] GenEcon@lemm.ee -6 points 2 years ago* (5 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation. Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future. permalink fedilink source parent [–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric permalink fedilink source parent [–] Eikichi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians. Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on. Unbelievable 🙁 permalink fedilink source parent [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago Which country gets the Temple Mount? There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Maturin@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 years ago (1 child) Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It's not a religious conflict, it's European colonialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 years ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 32 points 2 years ago (1 child) There have actually been plenty of periods of peace and tolerance in the middle east over the millennia. When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them, but the feuds themselves are new and are not contiguous with those ancient ones. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] hydrospanner@lemmy.world -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Ehhhhh...when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I'm inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 11 points 2 years ago As I said: When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them So they say now that "we're doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty", but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives. If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point? permalink fedilink source parent [–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 8 points 2 years ago (1 child) I can say that about literally every piece of land on the planet. So can you. You literally did, in a comment in this exact thread permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It's in the past and that's over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I'd be more sympathetic. P.s that's what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony. Israel isn't going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one -6 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between "every piece of land has bloodshed" and "a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!" No one gives a shit about your native ass crying "they killed people before, why should we save their lives??" Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice. Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Always falling back on racism is why people don't support you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here? Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent [–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 years ago (2 children) Not a millenia old feud. A one-centure-GB-US-Iran engeneered old feud. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] AreaSIX@lemm.ee 10 points 2 years ago Heard a lot of shit Iran's supposed to be involved with in the region, but it's the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would've understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -12 points 2 years ago (2 children) Haven't read a history book I take it, if you think the fight over Palestine is a new thing. I guess you've also never heard of the Crusades permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right? permalink fedilink source parent [–] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago What side were the Jews on in the crusades? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grte@lemmy.ca 54 points 2 years ago (2 children) Damn, 1948 was a thousand years ago? Time is weird, I guess. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 15 points 2 years ago (1 child) If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 16 points 2 years ago (1 child) Those Jews were not interested in a Jewish state in Palestine. That didn’t come until political Zionism in the interwar period. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -8 points 2 years ago (2 children) Do you think the region of Palestine and Arabs/Jews were created in 1948? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 39 points 2 years ago* (2 children) This isn't a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] GenEcon@lemm.ee -6 points 2 years ago* (5 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation. Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future. permalink fedilink source parent [–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric permalink fedilink source parent [–] Eikichi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians. Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on. Unbelievable 🙁 permalink fedilink source parent [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago Which country gets the Temple Mount? There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Maturin@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 years ago (1 child) Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It's not a religious conflict, it's European colonialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 years ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 15 points 2 years ago (1 child) If you want to just count recent history, jews started buying land and returning to Palestine in the late 1800s. They started flooding in after some anti-semitic pogroms in the early 20th century and things have been spicy since. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 16 points 2 years ago (1 child) Those Jews were not interested in a Jewish state in Palestine. That didn’t come until political Zionism in the interwar period. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 16 points 2 years ago (1 child) Those Jews were not interested in a Jewish state in Palestine. That didn’t come until political Zionism in the interwar period. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago Even before that there was some violence between the communities, which is what I was referring to. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -8 points 2 years ago (2 children) Do you think the region of Palestine and Arabs/Jews were created in 1948? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 39 points 2 years ago* (2 children) This isn't a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] GenEcon@lemm.ee -6 points 2 years ago* (5 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation. Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future. permalink fedilink source parent [–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric permalink fedilink source parent [–] Eikichi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians. Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on. Unbelievable 🙁 permalink fedilink source parent [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago Which country gets the Temple Mount? There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Maturin@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 years ago (1 child) Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It's not a religious conflict, it's European colonialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 years ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grte@lemmy.ca 39 points 2 years ago* (2 children) This isn't a conflict that was going on in the Ottoman period. This is a recent conflict and this attempt to turn it into a thousands year old religious war is bullshit. This is a colonial project where the goal is to take land. Very material in nature. That project has been in place since 1948. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] GenEcon@lemm.ee -6 points 2 years ago* (5 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation. Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future. permalink fedilink source parent [–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric permalink fedilink source parent [–] Eikichi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians. Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on. Unbelievable 🙁 permalink fedilink source parent [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago Which country gets the Temple Mount? There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Maturin@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora. permalink fedilink source parent [+] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 years ago (1 child) Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[+] GenEcon@lemm.ee -6 points 2 years ago* (5 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation. Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future. permalink fedilink source parent [–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric permalink fedilink source parent [–] Eikichi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians. Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on. Unbelievable 🙁 permalink fedilink source parent [–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago Which country gets the Temple Mount? There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Maturin@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grte@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago* Quite the opposite. I feel the same as you, both sides should be allowed to stay. What's done is done and ethnically cleansing the area is obviously a horrific crime that oughtn't be advocated for in either direction. Where we differ is that I see the two state solution as setting the region up for the same conflict down the road. After decades of settlement the areas which would make up the Palestinian state would be non-contiguous swiss cheese. It would be an untenable situation. Instead, a singular, secular, egalitarian state with universal suffrage and human rights guaranteed for all would be a challenging path, but I think ultimately a more stable one. And a path which would leave room for healing in the future. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago Bulshit. The diaspora started in 63BC, under Roman rule. Everybody could live peacefully side by side in one country, save for the religious nutheads pushing their hatred rhetoric permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Eikichi@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago Are you really saying that Holocaust happened because of the Palestinians. Jews and Muslims were literally brother before all this western bullshit, so come on. Unbelievable 🙁 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AngrilyEatingMuffins@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago Which country gets the Temple Mount? There’s a reason why every single non politician Palestinian who favors peace wants a single state. If material conditions persist what good will some embassies do Palestine? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Maturin@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 years ago You might want to double check who kicked out the Jews and started the diaspora. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Debatable. The people who think it's a millennia-long feud are counting from when the Romans threw the Israelites out of Israel according to the Bible. For them, protecting Israel at all costs is a religious thing, and their religion has existed for millennia, so 💁 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] grte@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 years ago (1 child) Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] grte@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 years ago (1 child) Islam hadn't even come about at that time, however, so people casting it as a religious war between Jews and Muslims come across as especially disingenuous if they try to frame it that way. Hell, the Romans hadn't even Christianized at that time. Is it a war between Judaism and Paganism? C'mon. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.cafe 9 points 2 years ago (1 child) You and I both know that, but the Bible - thumping loonies who support Israel's corrupt government right or wrong don't. They literally think that if the U.S. ever wavers or gives up support of the Israeli government in any way, it'll bring on the end times and trigger the prophecies in the Book of Revelations. 🤔 I never used to put much stock into the argument that religion is dangerous, but seeing how it affects everyone else politically, I will have to concede that point. It is very dangerous to civil society. If that's a authoritarian thing to say, it doesn't really matter -- the truth is inherently authoritarian in the minds of the weak. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wokehobbit@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent
[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago* (1 child) The region of Israel was created in 1948 by stealing Palestinian land to give to white European Jews. It's not a religious conflict, it's European colonialism permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 years ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 years ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 years ago That's just a different coat of paint. It's still the same settler colony it always was. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 32 points 2 years ago (1 child) There have actually been plenty of periods of peace and tolerance in the middle east over the millennia. When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them, but the feuds themselves are new and are not contiguous with those ancient ones. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] hydrospanner@lemmy.world -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Ehhhhh...when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I'm inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 11 points 2 years ago As I said: When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them So they say now that "we're doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty", but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives. If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point? permalink fedilink source parent
[+] hydrospanner@lemmy.world -8 points 2 years ago (1 child) Ehhhhh...when everyone reporting on it and everyone involved all acknowledge these old reasons as the root of the issue, I'm inclined to believe them over some comment on Lemmy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 11 points 2 years ago As I said: When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them So they say now that "we're doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty", but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives. If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 11 points 2 years ago As I said: When these feuds break out people go back and dig up ancient reasons to justify them So they say now that "we're doing this because a thousand years ago their ancestors did our ancestors dirty", but there were periods in between then and now where it was water under the bridge and people got on with their lives. If you think that people in those regions have literally been killing each other every day for over a thousand years, how is anyone actually left at this point? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 8 points 2 years ago (1 child) I can say that about literally every piece of land on the planet. So can you. You literally did, in a comment in this exact thread permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It's in the past and that's over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I'd be more sympathetic. P.s that's what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony. Israel isn't going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one -6 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between "every piece of land has bloodshed" and "a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!" No one gives a shit about your native ass crying "they killed people before, why should we save their lives??" Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice. Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Always falling back on racism is why people don't support you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here? Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) Exactly. We can say that about anywhere, and many people can claim Palestine as their ancestral home. It's in the past and that's over now. Sucks but my people went through it. Get every white and European off of my continent and ancestral lands and I'd be more sympathetic. P.s that's what makes me laugh too about all this, North American kids bitching about Israel colonizing Palestine, meanwhile my native ass is sitting there wondering if they get the irony. Israel isn't going away, the people who think the answer is getting rid of it are delusional. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one -6 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between "every piece of land has bloodshed" and "a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!" No one gives a shit about your native ass crying "they killed people before, why should we save their lives??" Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice. Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Always falling back on racism is why people don't support you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here? Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent
[+] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one -6 points 2 years ago (1 child) Lol, no, not quite. Nice try, but theres a difference between "every piece of land has bloodshed" and "a decade ago is technically the past, so you need to excuse all the war crimes we committed!" No one gives a shit about your native ass crying "they killed people before, why should we save their lives??" Your ancestral injustice does not justify modern injustice. Just admit youre racist and shuuut the fuuuck uuuup, no one wants your opinion permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Always falling back on racism is why people don't support you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here? Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (1 child) Always falling back on racism is why people don't support you permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here? Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent
[–] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) You literally said, in this thread, that youre native born who had your ancestors land taken from you and no one stopped that, so why should anyone help here? Thats racial, dude. You said that. Im not falling back on anything, Im pointing the fucked up things you said. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent
[–] irmoz@reddthat.com -3 points 2 years ago They didn't say anything racial permalink fedilink source parent
[–] HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 years ago (2 children) Not a millenia old feud. A one-centure-GB-US-Iran engeneered old feud. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] AreaSIX@lemm.ee 10 points 2 years ago Heard a lot of shit Iran's supposed to be involved with in the region, but it's the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would've understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -12 points 2 years ago (2 children) Haven't read a history book I take it, if you think the fight over Palestine is a new thing. I guess you've also never heard of the Crusades permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right? permalink fedilink source parent [–] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago What side were the Jews on in the crusades? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AreaSIX@lemm.ee 10 points 2 years ago Heard a lot of shit Iran's supposed to be involved with in the region, but it's the first time I hear them being accused of having engineered the Israel -Palestine conflict. How do you figure that? I would've understood accusing France for their involvement in sykes-picot, or even the Turks since the Ottomans administered the region in early 20th century. But Iran started supporting the Palestinians after the 1979 revolution, before that the Shah very much supported Israel. So I have a hard time seeing how they could be blamed for engineering the conflict. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world -12 points 2 years ago (2 children) Haven't read a history book I take it, if you think the fight over Palestine is a new thing. I guess you've also never heard of the Crusades permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right? permalink fedilink source parent [–] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago What side were the Jews on in the crusades? permalink fedilink source parent
[+] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child) [deleted] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago You are aware that the region known as Palestine and the Arab people existed before 1948 right? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago What side were the Jews on in the crusades? permalink fedilink source parent