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The difference (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/atheistmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] -2 points 2 years ago* (2 children)

And then they all died for their faith, bar John who was imprisoned for life, and not once renounced it to save themselves.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Pretty low to liken the Apostles to terrorists. The difference is that they created the story and witnessed it. The 9/11 terrorists believed Mohammed's lie.

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  • [+] 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)
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  • [–] -4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    They had great conviction because they literally witnessed a man's death and resurrection.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    None of them were eyewitnesses. The gospels were written decades and Paul old had a vision.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    No. Neither one of them were eyewitnesses.

    Matthew would have been an illiterate Aramaic speaker and yet the Gospel is written in highly educated Greek, contains events that hadn't happened yet, contains attributions of events that hadn't happened yet, contains events that the apostle wouldn't have seen, has mistakes about geography and Jewish culture that no Palestinian Jewish person would have made, contains direct word for word quotes from Mark, contains deliberately altered quotes from Mark to get certain results.

    John is even in a worse position because he not only makes all the mistakes Matthew made he shows a theology that had not even been developed in the first century.

    Luke is not a second hand account. He even admits as much when he talks about various sources. Luke borrowed from everywhere. Josphius, Mark, Matthew, the Letters, probably the Q and L source, and who knows how many oral traditions. He is a second hand account in the sense that if you heard me describe a Wikipedia article I had read 8 years ago would be.

    As for Paul sure he had a vision. Dehydration, some bad figs, late onset schizophrenia. Take your pick really.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    He was literally a tax collector. He would have been well educated.

    Please demonstrate that this was a job requirement.

    Where

    The Gospels. Or did you mean "please give me an example"?

    Or Mark was quoting Matthew before he wrote it down. It’s not that deep. Oral tradition exists.

    Sigh. No. Matthew is longer than Mark and contains fables that Mark didn't have. Also word for word quotes are not preserved of that length orally. They stole and copied from each other. Not complicated.

    Matthew was a first-hand source

    No it was a copy of Mark which was a copy of Paul which was a copy of some grifts that James was telling.

    o something already happened that caused an oral tradition, which would have led back to first hand accounts.

    Those are written traditions.

    His blindness was cured when he was baptised, though. Again, you’d argue that it was a placebo, but the Holy Spirit acted in many people and still does to this day.

    Odd how he never mentioned this even when it would have served him. Why can't your god write a better book?

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Paul only wrote half the letters attributed to him, John didn't write John, Mark didn't write Mark, Matthew didn't write Matthew, and Luke didn't write Luke. Of the 27 books of the NT only 8 are attributed correctly.

    As for their supposed dying for their faith we don't actually know that. That is all later church traditions. It's certainly possible since pretty much everyone got murdered who the Romans noticed but we don't have evidence that it happened to them and there was plenty of reason to lie about it.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    We are talking about 27 books here, this would take me pages to go through. You got to work with me a bit. Give me one book/letter in particular that you really think was written by the person it was attributed to that isn't the Apocalypse by John or the 7 undisputed of Paul. Want to start with Mark?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Fine.

    • Apostle Matthew would have been an illiterate Aramaic speaker. Yet the Gospel is written in educated Greek.

    • Apostle Matthew would have been Jewish and at least somewhat familiar with the Hebrew Bible. And yet the Gospel only shows references to the Septuagint Bible. Check it yourself, not a single reference to Purim or the book of Easter.

    • apostle Matthew would have recognized the poetic structure of Hebrew where the last sentence is repeated in slightly different ways. Example "and he went to the city. To the city he traveled". The Gospel writer didn't recognize it which is why he doubles stuff, hence Jesus riding a donkey and a colt.

    • apostle Matthew would not have had access to the Gospel of Mark as it came out decades later in a totally different part of the empire. And yet the Gospel writer copied whole passages word for word out of Mark.

    • apostle Matthew would have been about the same age as Jesus and from Galliee not the Bethlehem or Nazare and yet the Gospel writer claims to know about events going on prior to Jesus' birth including events with Mary and Joseph with no eyewitnesses

    • apostle Matthew would only have had access at best to stories from Jesus while the Gospel writer shows stories that were retroconned. This is why you have a scene where Mary calls Joseph the father that later translations tried to surpress.

    • apostle Matthew would have had no details about the events around the death of Jesus. How does he know what happens when Jesus is praying in private? How does he know about the trial with Pilot and what was said? And yet the Gospel writer did.

    • apostle Matthew would have had little to know knowledge about Greco-Roman or Persian or Indian myths and yet the Gospel writer did and borrowed extensively.

    • apostle Matthew would not have known Paul's letters and yet the Gospel writer references them.

    • apostle Matthew would never have seen the events of 70 AD and yet foreshadowing of those events is found

    • apostle Matthew would not have had any clue about the proto-Trinity debate of when Jesus was elevated and yet the Gospel writer takes a firm stand on that issue

    • the whole attribution to him was made two hundred years later and not from even church tradition.

    Let me know if you need more.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago

    1. There was no such requirement to work as a tax collector. You don't need to be an expert of literature techniques to knock on a door. Also it was Christian tradition.

    2. Which is a very good argument. Why didn't your god know what local illiterates knew?

    3. Learn Greek or at least copy from an apologetics writer who knows it. Matthew doubled all over the place the donkey and the horse being the worst incident of his lies.

    4. There is no evidence of an oral tradition. Mark copied Paul, Greek Hebrew-Bible, and some Greco-Roman traditions. Matthew copied him and added some more Greek stuff. Luke copied Matthew and Josphius. John copied them all.

    5. Really? So you know you know your coworker's mom said while praying 33 years ago one time with no eyewitnesses? Answer the question, yes or no.

    6. Full sentences please.

    7. Prove it.

    8. Dying and rising God. The idea of a god coming down, raping a girl, the child being a powerful figure who dies and becomes celestial is not original. Christian schools tend to avoid teaching this.

    9. Every fact about Jesus stated by Paul is found in Matthew, every interpretation of the facts Matthew disagrees with. What happened to the law? Paul said it no longer applied. Matthew said it did. When did Jesus become celestial? Paul said at the resurrection Matthew at conception.

    10. Prophecy is as fake as the hair of your prot. Pope.

    11. The Trinity wasn't invented yet.

    12. Right so if you could just show the evidence of your assertion that would be swell. I don't really give a shit about some story your grandma told you.

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