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Heaven on earth = Communism (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Even the more devout Christians I know (who actually have opinions about different theological positions) believe Earth and human society should not be modeled on heaven and attempts to do so will fail due to humans being inherently / essentially Fallen. This is part of how they rationalize their resistance / apathy towards movements for justice, at the very least they believe it is futile to seek justice in this life.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Yes it is doomed to fail. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, at least help those in need. You know like our prophet/priest/king has told us to.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    I don't agree that it is doomed to fail, but I also don't believe humans are inherently Fallen, and especially not in the particular soteriological sense that Christians believe (i.e. all later generations have inherited the guilt from the single act of disobedience by Adam & Eve dooming all of humanity to endless toil and suffering, as well as an evil nature).

    That said, I do think humans behave in sometimes predictable ways, and it might be useful to look at what kinds of choices about society might alleviate suffering and promote well-being and fairness in society.

    That said, I don't think that's going to happen without significant social upheaval, and that itself seems to bring about a lot of violence and the kinds of suffering I think we should all avoid ... so, yeah - these are hard problems.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    So, the people you have in mind don't believe in free will? Isn't that kind of un-Christian?

    And if they believe that humans don't have free will, then what's the point of all the “SINNERS!” and punishment and threats of hell and whatnot? None of us are in meaningful control of our actions, so trying to coerce us to change those actions obviously isn't going to work.

    Also, if we're all inherently evil, then we're all going to hell regardless, so this whole religion is kinda pointless, no?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Yes, the Christians I am talking about believe in predestination, and they disagree with, for example, Baptists about whether people can save other people or whether people can save themselves. Instead they believe God predetermines who ends up being saved or not, through the grace of God alone.

    And to answer your question about what is the ultimate point if there is no motivation through free-will, their answer is usually either "it's a mystery" or "to glorify God".

    They still believe in a kind of free-will, but only within the confines of God's pre-determined choices. God chose for you, but it was you that did the choosing and are responsible. One explanation I was given is that you make the choice out of free-will, and then God observes your choice and then goes back in time and determines it from the beginning. It's not a coherent view, as far as I can tell - there is no compelling logical or reasonable compatibilist account they offer, it just sounds like contradiction and fantastic thinking.

    Also, their view is that our nature is fallen (total depravity), and the only good is from God and God chooses who receives the gift of salvation and thus who will become cured of their evil nature. They believe they should do good things and proselytize to convert others to Christianity because God commands them to, not because those things will save themselves or anyone else. Obedience is very important to this mindset.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Nice write up. I often think of this verse from the first book of the new testament in the King James bible.

    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    -Matthew 6:5

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    Also, the bible tells us literally nothing about how heaven actually works or what people even do there. Meanwhile Marx wrote extensively about how he thinks a communist system would work. Heaven is not a "system" we can conceivably implement, because there's nothing to implement. It's just an abstract concept, and a very broad and ambiguous one at that.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Seek out and meet a christian anarchist. Those folks are badass and will change your idea of christianity's potential (I'm agnostic).

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    My concept of Christianity is rather expansive, and Christian anarchists are often inspired by Tolstoy, who is someone I have read about and whose works I have given some attention. I can confirm they are rather different than most Christians - Tolstoy in particular rejected the Church after he saw they were committed to enabling war, which is clearly un-Christian. Dorothy Day is another relevant Christian anarchist, and I have worked with a Catholic Workers House locally, so I have some IRL exposure to these folks as well.

    I tend to think "Christian" is an almost meaningless term without more context or clarification, people who call themselves Christians hold opposite views on many different positions. "Buddhism" is no different, if anything it is worse, so this isn't particular to Christianity. Nor is it particular to religion, Marx spent some time in the Communism Manifesto clarifying what he meant by "socialism" and the different kinds of socialism he was aware of - there are many such overloaded terms and concepts. It seems particularly common in any political context, where there is power struggle it seems there are struggles between meanings for a particular word.

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